It's worth thinking about having your templates cut by laser.
To give you guys an idea, a ski template in 2mm steel cost around £9.00 including taxes. Tolerance is +/- 0.02mm to drawing - thanks CO and Hjfast for the help.
The beam is so thin, the negatives from the tip moulds can be used as templates, ( I think) you don't get this pay-off from CNC milling ... I will design this area differently next time to max them out. An additional advantage is that the beam hardens the edge of the steel (ski template) as it cuts. There is a small amount of burr to remove - totally nominal. Once the edge has been cut it feels like 1200 grade wet and dry paper - so I expect it to work really well against a trim bit.
I said to these guys that I would try and find them more business - so shout if you can't find cheaper locally and want to use there service and I'll make arrangements. I think a cassette (the additional pieces) could be done for .... around £40.00 and posted in a reinforced jiffy bag...maybe as little at £25.00 if this next cassette design works as I think it should.
Laser cutting
Moderators: Head Monkey, kelvin, bigKam, skidesmond, chrismp
I thought I would add a little more to this thread ...
You guys will remember this video:
Well it occurred to me that what we weren't being shown was the mold in which edges were placed in advance of pressing @ 1.38 - 1.48. I could be wrong and perhaps they have just found great contact adhesive? Anyway, this was the first attempt.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/a ... directlink
Having seen the draftsight light (draw in Snowcad, edit in draftsight) and discovered laser cutting, this is what I am having cut in steel - just what is necessary. I think what I have cut below is around £20.00. My bill was around £68.00 for two different designs.
The template on the right gives you the mold in which to add your edges. This was just the first attempt, I need to re-cut the ply per the template. To process, you load the edges, apply the glue - hairs width, press in your base material, do again on top and load it in the press. My press has a flat pressing area beneath the ski mold
This template can also be used to create sidewalls for your planner sled, keeps it all in place and helps you check everything is on track
Sidewalls for when you clamp on your edges to your core - which means you have pressure all along all the area you wish to bond
You can also use it as template for milling 2mm AL, once you have confirmed your design and the cassette design in finalised ... may be
Arguably a piece of plastic will make these molds too - so if you can't get these cut, you still have options
Back to the important point - the advantages of attaching your edges in this way are easy to understand when you do it - speed, accuracy, QA. To take real advance of this, you need an edge bender. That way you know the radius and can design around it. It should give you no joint on an ordinary ski and only one joint twin tip.
Could you do more than just two at a time ... I don't see why not. Just increase the height of the mold
I just need to create the form shown @ 1.51 and job done... but I don't have picture twizz : )
These are straight out of the press - I need to use much less glue to attached edge and leave a few gaps to allow the air to escape. The base is very clean as a result.
You get a 90 degree corner from laser cutting - bonus
The finish on the edge of the steel is excellent - just a few burrs to clean up. So repeatability is sorted. I didn't originally factor in the difference between created by cutter of the flush trim bit and its bearing. No great shakes.
I'm also having the tips cut
The reason for the angle iron - it holds everything is place while you drill your pilot holes. They were the same originally - honest!
I have kept the interior material - I'm thinking it will be a template for when I cap the tips. I'm in two minds whether rebating the tips is a good idea. Anyway, to cap the skis I intend to simply have another tip mold cut and to place in on top, allowing it to trap everything in place when compressed in the press.
Btw - has anyone tried using one of these http://www.uk-diamondblades.co.uk/conte ... lades.html to cut flash. Can you used wet (in a tile cutting machine - no dust)
Photobucket will re-size at some stage!
You guys will remember this video:
Well it occurred to me that what we weren't being shown was the mold in which edges were placed in advance of pressing @ 1.38 - 1.48. I could be wrong and perhaps they have just found great contact adhesive? Anyway, this was the first attempt.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/a ... directlink
Having seen the draftsight light (draw in Snowcad, edit in draftsight) and discovered laser cutting, this is what I am having cut in steel - just what is necessary. I think what I have cut below is around £20.00. My bill was around £68.00 for two different designs.
The template on the right gives you the mold in which to add your edges. This was just the first attempt, I need to re-cut the ply per the template. To process, you load the edges, apply the glue - hairs width, press in your base material, do again on top and load it in the press. My press has a flat pressing area beneath the ski mold
This template can also be used to create sidewalls for your planner sled, keeps it all in place and helps you check everything is on track
Sidewalls for when you clamp on your edges to your core - which means you have pressure all along all the area you wish to bond
You can also use it as template for milling 2mm AL, once you have confirmed your design and the cassette design in finalised ... may be
Arguably a piece of plastic will make these molds too - so if you can't get these cut, you still have options
Back to the important point - the advantages of attaching your edges in this way are easy to understand when you do it - speed, accuracy, QA. To take real advance of this, you need an edge bender. That way you know the radius and can design around it. It should give you no joint on an ordinary ski and only one joint twin tip.
Could you do more than just two at a time ... I don't see why not. Just increase the height of the mold
I just need to create the form shown @ 1.51 and job done... but I don't have picture twizz : )
These are straight out of the press - I need to use much less glue to attached edge and leave a few gaps to allow the air to escape. The base is very clean as a result.
You get a 90 degree corner from laser cutting - bonus
The finish on the edge of the steel is excellent - just a few burrs to clean up. So repeatability is sorted. I didn't originally factor in the difference between created by cutter of the flush trim bit and its bearing. No great shakes.
I'm also having the tips cut
The reason for the angle iron - it holds everything is place while you drill your pilot holes. They were the same originally - honest!
I have kept the interior material - I'm thinking it will be a template for when I cap the tips. I'm in two minds whether rebating the tips is a good idea. Anyway, to cap the skis I intend to simply have another tip mold cut and to place in on top, allowing it to trap everything in place when compressed in the press.
Btw - has anyone tried using one of these http://www.uk-diamondblades.co.uk/conte ... lades.html to cut flash. Can you used wet (in a tile cutting machine - no dust)
Photobucket will re-size at some stage!
Last edited by Richuk on Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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twizzstyle
- Posts: 2207
- Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:25 pm
- Location: Kenmore, Wa USA
Using the tile cutting machine has thrown up these results - this is an old ski that failed. You have to be careful where you start. Arguably the best thing is to cut the tips first - might need to follow the ON3P method for this. Don't know yet. The blade will follow the edge, but it bangs - this is not such an issue around the tips.
I cut topside down so I could see the steel edge - first attempt. I had a concern that the downward cutting action might be an issue - nope
The blade appears to have a grit level of about 80 - 100, although the manufacturers do not categorise them this way, so I was told.
The cut is quick, not as quick as a bandsaw, but a lot quicker than a jigsaw. The cut is dust free, which is one of the main reasons for thinking about this option and is super clinical. Now I know it works well, finding a cheaper cutting blade will be no great shakes.
In fact this has just popped up on Ebay - the ID is wrong, but anyway
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125mm-GRP-Dia ... 1143wt_905
To start from scratch, tile cutters can be as little as £30.00 new, cheaper on Ebay and there are plenty with plastic cutting tables.
If I could afford a bandsaw, then I probably would be happy to learn the method and stay close to the edge, but I don't and I definitely don't have the room right now. IMO this is the next best option v's jigsaw, jigsaw with tile cutting blade and handsaw - all of which I have tried : ( These other methods are OK, but they have a habit of throwing up defeats.
I cut topside down so I could see the steel edge - first attempt. I had a concern that the downward cutting action might be an issue - nope
The blade appears to have a grit level of about 80 - 100, although the manufacturers do not categorise them this way, so I was told.
The cut is quick, not as quick as a bandsaw, but a lot quicker than a jigsaw. The cut is dust free, which is one of the main reasons for thinking about this option and is super clinical. Now I know it works well, finding a cheaper cutting blade will be no great shakes.
In fact this has just popped up on Ebay - the ID is wrong, but anyway
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125mm-GRP-Dia ... 1143wt_905
To start from scratch, tile cutters can be as little as £30.00 new, cheaper on Ebay and there are plenty with plastic cutting tables.
If I could afford a bandsaw, then I probably would be happy to learn the method and stay close to the edge, but I don't and I definitely don't have the room right now. IMO this is the next best option v's jigsaw, jigsaw with tile cutting blade and handsaw - all of which I have tried : ( These other methods are OK, but they have a habit of throwing up defeats.
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Head Monkey
- Posts: 310
- Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:53 pm
- Location: Carnation, WA
- Contact:
Check these out for the nose/tail: http://remgrit.com/rg-carbidegrit-jb.html
I use the RemGrit tungsten carbide blade, medium grit, and they work like a champ. They last forever and cost me about $3.50usd locally. They also make bandsaw blades, though I’ve never used one.
I use the RemGrit tungsten carbide blade, medium grit, and they work like a champ. They last forever and cost me about $3.50usd locally. They also make bandsaw blades, though I’ve never used one.
Everything I know about snowboard building, almost: MonkeyWiki, a guide to snowboard construction
Free open source ski and snowboard CADCAM: MonkeyCAM, snoCAD-X
Free open source ski and snowboard CADCAM: MonkeyCAM, snoCAD-X
Picked up one of these: http://www.permagrit.com/product.php?cP ... cts_id=236 - so looks like I'm on the right track!
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Head Monkey
- Posts: 310
- Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:53 pm
- Location: Carnation, WA
- Contact:
Perfect!
Everything I know about snowboard building, almost: MonkeyWiki, a guide to snowboard construction
Free open source ski and snowboard CADCAM: MonkeyCAM, snoCAD-X
Free open source ski and snowboard CADCAM: MonkeyCAM, snoCAD-X
Few more pics:
The mould are complete. The roller is easier and quicker than fingers - the base is firmly in the mould, but remains flat
This bit of warp is easily corrected
Testing ... the one in the middle took 5 mins to cut the edge and get it in the mould.
Use the piece that falls from the tip mould when laser cut as a template for this too
One joint for a twin - top corner
No joint for touring ski - the edge just loops all the way round
I think this is the last revision I need to do on this area. If someone would like to send me a CNC edge bender - its no problem, I'm not proud : )
The mould are complete. The roller is easier and quicker than fingers - the base is firmly in the mould, but remains flat
This bit of warp is easily corrected
Testing ... the one in the middle took 5 mins to cut the edge and get it in the mould.
Use the piece that falls from the tip mould when laser cut as a template for this too
One joint for a twin - top corner
No joint for touring ski - the edge just loops all the way round
I think this is the last revision I need to do on this area. If someone would like to send me a CNC edge bender - its no problem, I'm not proud : )
Last edited by Richuk on Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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twizzstyle
- Posts: 2207
- Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:25 pm
- Location: Kenmore, Wa USA
Wow. I'm speechless. That is an insanely tight fit! 
I wonder how it will do with heat as things (the base/edges) expand?
Looks really amazing, nice work as usual Rich! (I still owe you pictures of my tip roller... I clamped it to my work table to take pictures, but keep getting distracted by the jet engine)
I wonder how it will do with heat as things (the base/edges) expand?
Looks really amazing, nice work as usual Rich! (I still owe you pictures of my tip roller... I clamped it to my work table to take pictures, but keep getting distracted by the jet engine)
Jet engines tend to be a bit distracting. When do you strap yourself in, will we get to see this clip : )
I like this method because it cuts down process time and saves me from jumping up and down like a little girl when it comes to loading the cassette and the last edge is being a pain : ) It also means no surprises out of the cassette and less epoxy on the base.
Falls I hadn't thought of the method you suggest because I like to see the result as I go. In addition, I don't spot the teeth, just the side of the edge. This isn't a perfect method, the photo's don't show it very well, but there is still a potential for 0.2mm gap around the tip - only 20mm long, but I don't have to worry about it because the tip moulds in the cassette will resolve. Anyway, I am sure with practice - its just the tension in the edge set.
Once out of the press - I can't be certain about movement. I re-set using the new templates. The skis I made appear to be no wider than 0.2mm against the new template. My feeling is they have not moved, or if they have, it is an entirely acceptable amount, as I am prototyping at the moment. The real issue to keep an eye on is the flush trim cutter. I suspect there is a marginal difference between the diameter of the blade and bearing and this accounts for a slightly oversized set of bases. Not entirely sure just yet ... just logging a suspicion. In any event, no great shakes!
I like this method because it cuts down process time and saves me from jumping up and down like a little girl when it comes to loading the cassette and the last edge is being a pain : ) It also means no surprises out of the cassette and less epoxy on the base.
Falls I hadn't thought of the method you suggest because I like to see the result as I go. In addition, I don't spot the teeth, just the side of the edge. This isn't a perfect method, the photo's don't show it very well, but there is still a potential for 0.2mm gap around the tip - only 20mm long, but I don't have to worry about it because the tip moulds in the cassette will resolve. Anyway, I am sure with practice - its just the tension in the edge set.
Once out of the press - I can't be certain about movement. I re-set using the new templates. The skis I made appear to be no wider than 0.2mm against the new template. My feeling is they have not moved, or if they have, it is an entirely acceptable amount, as I am prototyping at the moment. The real issue to keep an eye on is the flush trim cutter. I suspect there is a marginal difference between the diameter of the blade and bearing and this accounts for a slightly oversized set of bases. Not entirely sure just yet ... just logging a suspicion. In any event, no great shakes!
Last edited by Richuk on Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
I agree on the flush trim cutters. I don't think they are perfectly identical, but close enough. The other thing I think using MDF moulds is that the bearing will push in somewhat to the MDF as you have said and with time this means your bases get a bit smaller. Prob talking fractions of mm though. Your steel templates should sort that out anyway.
With your edging technique I guess you do see how good fit you are getting as you go, that's good. I just wondered about the unsupported base in the middle, but I suppose all the rolling occurs at the supported sides where the edge teeth are. I also think your gluing method sounds good, sort of sealing the edge/base interface and stopping epoxy squeeze through. I though when watching that LINE video that this was kind of what they were trying to do.
are you using something like this to prebend your tips?
With your edging technique I guess you do see how good fit you are getting as you go, that's good. I just wondered about the unsupported base in the middle, but I suppose all the rolling occurs at the supported sides where the edge teeth are. I also think your gluing method sounds good, sort of sealing the edge/base interface and stopping epoxy squeeze through. I though when watching that LINE video that this was kind of what they were trying to do.
are you using something like this to prebend your tips?
Don't wait up, I'm off to kill Summer....