women's specific ski design

[allyson]

hey guys--
i am in the process of designing my first ski, and i would like to hear thoughts on women's specific skis. i know there are slight differences between men's and women's skis, but i don't know exactly what. at what point in the process does a ski become women's specific? is it in the cut, the weight, or the flex? are there differences between cores and the way that the weight of the skier is distributed? when designing the ski, what factors should i most consider?

thanks in advance for the advice.

[mark]

at what point in the process does a ski become women's specific?

I think it's when they put the pink top sheet on.

Can't speak for skis, but when I sold snowboards, the women specific models mostly had a softer flex and and a different marketing angle on the graphics.

When you're talking about a womens specific ski by a big manufacturer, it just means it was designed for the average Jane rather than the average Joe. If you're building a custom ski for your self, don't worry about what someone else thinks the average girl should ride and start thinking in terms of your height and weight, how you ski, what conditions you ski in, and what shade of pink to make the top sheet.

[endre]

I have done some research on what the big brands do.
Dynastar's new girl-line has built up heel areas,(2-3mm on freeride skis, 10-15mm on carving skis) this is done to lean the skier more foreward, they say this is a problem with many female skiers. K2 have another approach to the same problem, the Nancy has a stiffer back-ski (softer overall flex)
In general most girl skis are softer, Some makes average stiff girl skis though. The length compared to body size generaly seems shorter. Most of the skis are a little more carved, lighter and always with pink flowers on them. The last piece seems as the most important factor.

What the f** are flowers doing on a ski anyway?

[G-man]

Hi allyson,

From a pretty straight forward design perspective, I think that the 'woman's specific ski' is, to some degree, industry hype to sell more skis to a different market base. As mentioned above, weight and height are predominant factors in designing a ski for one's self, as is preferred skiing style from one day to the next. Some days, I want a short ski with lots of side-cut for skiing tight trees, and the next day I might want a longer, straighter ski for skiing long radius mach speed turns down the side of a volcano. If I were designing a ski for a woman that was as tall as I am and weighed the same as I do, I don't think that I'd factor in any different design elements just because of the gender difference.... I'll stay away from comments regarding the color issue cause I'm kind of fond of pink myself. If I were designing a ski for a 130 lb woman who stood 5' 4", I would use the same parameters for a ski for a guy of the same height and weight. That's about the size of my wife and I'm quite sure that she could whip any guy her same size, so I don't buy the idea that strength should be a factor in male vs. female ski design. If a woman is tough enough to be out in the back country on skis, she probably has a pretty active overall lifestyle, so it seems pretty insulting to me for ski industry designers to design a softer ski just for the women because they somehow have a 'softer' skiing style.

Here's just a few general points that you might consider in your design. As a ski gets shorter, the relative side-cut should be reduced so that you don't end up with a ski with too tight of a turning radius. A 30 mm side-cut on a 155 cm ski will turn a lot faster than the same side-cut on a 180cm ski. Also, mold camber should be reduced as ski length decreases because as a ski gets shorter, it becomes more difficult to de-camber the ski, especially if the skier's weight is also on the lighter side. And, as a ski gets shorter, the amount of composite fiber can be reduced simply because a shorter ski is inherently more stiff than a longer ski (utilizing the same lay-up).

In short, shorter skis can generally be built softer than longer skis because, generally speaking, lighter skiers are riding them. But, as with most things, nothing is absolute. Now-a-days, some pretty big skiers are using 130 to 160cm skis and really liking them. Who knows what new changes this year will bring.

Happy ski building,

G-man

[allyson]

sweet! thanks for all the advice guys--it is all very helpful. i'll make sure to post some pics when i finish--complete with pink flowers and all.

[Greg]

I tend to think that the flowers are the most important factor in addition to a softer flex. Case in point: A lady friend of mine who is a little heavier was really bummed because she wanted the flowery "women specific" skis, but after realizing that they were just too soft for her, she was forced to buy a "men's ski".

One of these days I hope to build a pair of skis with flowers, just for her

[Cadman]

This is information from a website on womens skiing called www.jeanniethoren.com. It is a very informative website and would be
something that I would check out if I was to build women specific skis.
She is retained by Dynastar skis as their consultant for womens skiing. She does a seminar tour every fall and I would check it out if you have
interest in womens skiing and the problems that they encounter. It was one of the most informative seminars that I have been to since I ski alot with good women skiers during the winter.

"A woman’s center of gravity is on average one inch lower and further back than a man’s. She also carries more weight below the waist; around her hips, buttocks, and thighs. Men, broader in the chest and shoulders, carry their weight above the waist.

This difference in anatomy accounts for a woman carrying her weight further back on her skis. You can think of a man as a pear standing on its head, and a woman as a pear sitting on its bottom. When a man flexes forward on his skis, his center of gravity is over his toes. When a woman flexes forward, her center of gravity is over her heels. Skis initiate turns from the front end of the skis, so when a skier’s weight is concentrated too far back on the ski, the unweighted tip will shoot forward, wander, and possibly cross. Many women have difficulty getting forward on their skis and staying there.

Women's feet ankles don't flex as far as mens and they are generally smaller so I would think that moving the waist forward in relationship
to the MRS would help. I don't think that just moving the binding is the answer to womens ski design. You can see their problems on steeper slopes. Women have more trouble initiating turns as the slope angle increases which is due to their anatomy.

I don't want to start any negative feedback here but I think that women in general don't have same kind of muscle structure that men have so they end up not being as strong. Take for instance the calf muscles. They attach a different places on the leg than men so their leverage is different. Hence, women normally need a boot with a wider opening at the top than men. Since they don't have the muscle mass, I would guess that they need a slightly softer ski to help with initiation. I am not talking about real world class athlete women who are a built like a man. I am talking about the average athletic woman who wants to become a decent skier and have some fun. I have never heard any good comments from an average woman skier who just came in from trying out her boyfriends race stock skis.