So, long story short, my roommate and I are getting ready to build some skis. I'll let the pictures do the talking for now and give specifics later.
And I'd like to say thanks for all of the great info on this site and in the forum!
ahhh man! i guess i have to post a couple times and wait till tomorrow to post pics for you guys.
Ski Haus ski builders
Moderators: Head Monkey, kelvin, bigKam, skidesmond, chrismp
oh.. and what im hoping to do is buy one pair of alpine bindings and use inserts in all of the skis that i build for this one pair of bindings so that i can switch them from my powder skis (the first pair i'll be making) to my park or all mountain skis.
do you guys see any problem with this idea?
kind of like how the lines had the four inserts in the middle of their skis a few years back for their binding system, but i'd have four inserts in the front for the toe piece and four in the back for the heal piece.
thanks guys!
KEVIN
do you guys see any problem with this idea?
kind of like how the lines had the four inserts in the middle of their skis a few years back for their binding system, but i'd have four inserts in the front for the toe piece and four in the back for the heal piece.
thanks guys!
KEVIN
one of Sean's cores, ready to be shaped and profiled...
two maple stringers and 3 poplar stringers
sean gluing his sidewalls on
gluing together my bottom mold
early rise tips with zero camber
is this deep enough for the edges? the ski base turned out a little concave.
sean profiling his core
out of the profiling jig
getting ready for the lay up
sean's mold in the foreground, mine in the press in the background. apparently we need the make the molds thicker
ready to start
extra layer of fiberglass for binding mounting
carbon fiber stringer, top and bottom
top sheet
200*f and 45PSI
sean's skis all cleaned up!
Test time!!! Mission Ridge, WA 12-6-2008 .... only man made snow on one run top to bottom
getting ready
first run
I'll get some pictures tomorrow of the slight delamination problems we're having from the day of testing.
I just picked up my materials from Kelvin this evening, so hopefully I'll be pressing my skis in the next two weeks while school is out.
two maple stringers and 3 poplar stringers
sean gluing his sidewalls on
gluing together my bottom mold
early rise tips with zero camber
is this deep enough for the edges? the ski base turned out a little concave.
sean profiling his core
out of the profiling jig
getting ready for the lay up
sean's mold in the foreground, mine in the press in the background. apparently we need the make the molds thicker
ready to start
extra layer of fiberglass for binding mounting
carbon fiber stringer, top and bottom
top sheet
200*f and 45PSI
sean's skis all cleaned up!
Test time!!! Mission Ridge, WA 12-6-2008 .... only man made snow on one run top to bottom
getting ready
first run
I'll get some pictures tomorrow of the slight delamination problems we're having from the day of testing.
I just picked up my materials from Kelvin this evening, so hopefully I'll be pressing my skis in the next two weeks while school is out.
Oh yeah, we also did a little bit of a test with the inserts. I bought a pack of 100 inserts from mcmaster and will be hopefully using inserts for one pair of alpine bindings on all of the skis that I make. We decided to try out a proof of concepts on a small section of core, fiberglass, ptex, and an old pair of bindings to make sure it wouldn't be too hard to get the inserts lined up correctly.
the toe piece lines up perfectly! i didn't have the correct length bolts for the heel piece.
i sealed the inserts with tape on the bottom of the holes and filled them from the top with wax to keep the resin out during layup. it worked great, just use a small drill bit to clean out the wax.
and we decided to do a little strength testing.
the top of the binding just pulled off!! links to the video at the end of the post.
so we decided to keep going and see how much it would take to break the binding plate or inserts
we ended up reaching the breaking point of our tools first.
it started to bend my new clamp!
if i remember correctly i think we figured it was somewhere around 1000lbs of pressure with the length bar and all of my weight (200lbs)
videos are here. you will probably have to use VLC media player or something like it to play this format.
testing the toe piece and it failing
http://students.washington.edu/kevinl3/IMGP4502.AVI
testing the binding plate and the clamp failing
http://students.washington.edu/kevinl3/IMGP4514.AVI
the toe piece lines up perfectly! i didn't have the correct length bolts for the heel piece.
i sealed the inserts with tape on the bottom of the holes and filled them from the top with wax to keep the resin out during layup. it worked great, just use a small drill bit to clean out the wax.
and we decided to do a little strength testing.
the top of the binding just pulled off!! links to the video at the end of the post.
so we decided to keep going and see how much it would take to break the binding plate or inserts
we ended up reaching the breaking point of our tools first.
it started to bend my new clamp!
if i remember correctly i think we figured it was somewhere around 1000lbs of pressure with the length bar and all of my weight (200lbs)
videos are here. you will probably have to use VLC media player or something like it to play this format.
testing the toe piece and it failing
http://students.washington.edu/kevinl3/IMGP4502.AVI
testing the binding plate and the clamp failing
http://students.washington.edu/kevinl3/IMGP4514.AVI
OK, time for pictures of our problems on our first pair...
the base was edge high, so the base was concave, even though sean routed a channel out the same thickness as the edge teeth. any ideas how to fix this? this is what the ski looked like after some passes through the stone grinder before the ski techs stopped and gave up...
a small area where the edge wasn't close enough to the ptex and the resin didn't fill the void... not a huge deal...
delamination between the VDS rubber and the sidewalls. although sean forgot the flame treat the top and bottom of the sidewalls before he laid it up, so hopefully that's the main problem there. is there any way to fix this before it gets worse and the skis can still be usable for a little longer?
same area without the card
the base was edge high, so the base was concave, even though sean routed a channel out the same thickness as the edge teeth. any ideas how to fix this? this is what the ski looked like after some passes through the stone grinder before the ski techs stopped and gave up...
a small area where the edge wasn't close enough to the ptex and the resin didn't fill the void... not a huge deal...
delamination between the VDS rubber and the sidewalls. although sean forgot the flame treat the top and bottom of the sidewalls before he laid it up, so hopefully that's the main problem there. is there any way to fix this before it gets worse and the skis can still be usable for a little longer?
same area without the card
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twizzstyle
- Posts: 2207
- Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:25 pm
- Location: Kenmore, Wa USA
And just a quick note on how the skis skied on saturday...
The tails are very soft (what I wanted), but maybe too soft, and the tips are too stiff (wanted them also soft). Not sure why, I wonder if I had the core shifted in the profiling jig, I never checked thickness of the core front and back before the layup.
After a few warm up runs to build my trust in the skis I was pushing them quite hard. They turn great, flex feels perfect. They are pretty spring and pop off little bumps with very little effort. I did a few boxes, but no rails, they're good and solid on the boxes.
They're a little heavier than I would like (weight about the same as Public Enemies). I was able to do 270's onto the boxes just fine, but struggled to do a standing 360 (something I can do easily on my 1260s).
They don't ski switch very well. I think this is because the tips are too stiff, so you really have to push them to turn.
The tails are very soft (what I wanted), but maybe too soft, and the tips are too stiff (wanted them also soft). Not sure why, I wonder if I had the core shifted in the profiling jig, I never checked thickness of the core front and back before the layup.
After a few warm up runs to build my trust in the skis I was pushing them quite hard. They turn great, flex feels perfect. They are pretty spring and pop off little bumps with very little effort. I did a few boxes, but no rails, they're good and solid on the boxes.
They're a little heavier than I would like (weight about the same as Public Enemies). I was able to do 270's onto the boxes just fine, but struggled to do a standing 360 (something I can do easily on my 1260s).
They don't ski switch very well. I think this is because the tips are too stiff, so you really have to push them to turn.
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twizzstyle
- Posts: 2207
- Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:25 pm
- Location: Kenmore, Wa USA
Hum very nice inserts test !
For your delamination problem that seems like plastic sidewalls are a pain in the a**. You say you flame treated them but did you belt-sanded them after core profiling and prior to flame treatment, so the surface is rough ?
From what I unserstood (and please someone correct me if I'm wrong) there is no (or very few) chemical bonding on sidewall material with epoxy, same thing for base material and tip spacers by-the-way. So the only way is mechanical bonding : you want a rough surface so Epoxy will flow in small crevices and harden there, this is the reason of belt sanding.
The flame treatment aim at removing all the surface tensions in the material, caused by the sanding. I don't really understand what it means exactly for the material but a quick search on Google might help.
Anyway that's why I stick to wood sidewalls :p, base and tipspacers come already treated and ready to bond (even if I read somewhere that it would be better to flame treat all those materials a few minutes before starting layup)
Good luck, and very nice and clean job ! keep going !
For your delamination problem that seems like plastic sidewalls are a pain in the a**. You say you flame treated them but did you belt-sanded them after core profiling and prior to flame treatment, so the surface is rough ?
From what I unserstood (and please someone correct me if I'm wrong) there is no (or very few) chemical bonding on sidewall material with epoxy, same thing for base material and tip spacers by-the-way. So the only way is mechanical bonding : you want a rough surface so Epoxy will flow in small crevices and harden there, this is the reason of belt sanding.
The flame treatment aim at removing all the surface tensions in the material, caused by the sanding. I don't really understand what it means exactly for the material but a quick search on Google might help.
Anyway that's why I stick to wood sidewalls :p, base and tipspacers come already treated and ready to bond (even if I read somewhere that it would be better to flame treat all those materials a few minutes before starting layup)
Good luck, and very nice and clean job ! keep going !
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knightsofnii
- Posts: 1148
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:02 am
- Location: NJ USA
- Contact:
you put the rubber as a layer mated to the sidewall material?
I had that idea in my head too. But after speaking with several people about it in the industry, the prime function of the rubber is to aid in bonding METAL to other composites.
Such as:
Laying rubber strips over the EDGE material during layup, all the way around the edge. Making sure the rubber is completely saturated, because it is impermeable, so any dry spots will cause delaminations.
also
anywhere you use any type of metal plates for added strength, add a layer of rubber between the metal and whatever else it wants to bond to.
The rubber provides a flexible shear layer between more rigid metal and fiberglass which is far more flexible. Fiberglass over metal directly will flex as the metal stays rigid, and the integrity of the bond between the two will be lost over time.
There ARE people who suggest using rubber on both sides of the sidewall to aid in bonding. But, yea, you MUST flame treat, AND sand on a wet belt.
Dont sand on a dry belt, you will overheat the plastic and it will get brittle.
And if you do it on a grindrite, pour clean water over the belt, dont use the water/emulsion fluid mix feed on the machine.
I had that idea in my head too. But after speaking with several people about it in the industry, the prime function of the rubber is to aid in bonding METAL to other composites.
Such as:
Laying rubber strips over the EDGE material during layup, all the way around the edge. Making sure the rubber is completely saturated, because it is impermeable, so any dry spots will cause delaminations.
also
anywhere you use any type of metal plates for added strength, add a layer of rubber between the metal and whatever else it wants to bond to.
The rubber provides a flexible shear layer between more rigid metal and fiberglass which is far more flexible. Fiberglass over metal directly will flex as the metal stays rigid, and the integrity of the bond between the two will be lost over time.
There ARE people who suggest using rubber on both sides of the sidewall to aid in bonding. But, yea, you MUST flame treat, AND sand on a wet belt.
Dont sand on a dry belt, you will overheat the plastic and it will get brittle.
And if you do it on a grindrite, pour clean water over the belt, dont use the water/emulsion fluid mix feed on the machine.
Doug