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Re: Jonrezz’s Build Log

Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:24 am
by Jonrezz
Yup! I use this stuff for mold release:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00V7 ... UTF8&psc=1

Regarding the supersoft - I soaked the veneer with and let it soak in for 5 or 10 minutes and then put the veneer sheets in between the plywood offcuts separated by paper towels and clamped it all down. I should note that the basement I did this in does have a dehumidifier, I leave it set at 40% RH. I opened the clamps after about 6 hours and removed the paper towels, but the wood was still damp. The wood seemed pretty dry compared to when I put it in originally (just damp to the touch), so when I put the veneer back in and re-clamped it, I didn't use more paper towels, I just stuck the two veneer sheets into the plywood and re-clamped everything.

for the next 3 days, I opened it up once per day for 10 minutes to check on progress and give the veneer a chance to breathe/wick the moisture before re-clamping it. by the end of the week the veneer was flat and dry, but still retained a lot of flexibility. I then trimmed the veneer, taped the seams for the book match, and proceeded with layup as normal.

The bond of the veneer on this snowboard seems as strong as any other ski/board I've pressed so I'm not too concerned about the lamination strength.

edit: One thing to keep in mind is that the veneer does eventually loose its flatness after flattening. The veneersupplies website says on it somewhere that you generally have a couple days to use the flattened veneer before it starts to curl again. So you're going to want to flatten the veneer as one of the last things you do before you lay up and press. If it does re-curl, you can re-flatten it though.

Re: Jonrezz’s Build Log

Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2022 3:00 pm
by 24Dave
Hi Jonrezz, thanks for your answer! :D
I'm looking forward to flattening some of the veneer I have in stock in this way, -Dave

Re: Jonrezz’s Build Log

Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2022 5:11 am
by Skiinme
Hi Jonrezz -
Long time follower, thank you for all the details.

Would you mind sharing the basic specs of your vacuum table? My son and I are looking to upgrade our vacuum bagging game, and I like that yours is built specifically for ski building. I'm not sure how wide to make it.

Plus the expanded aluminum is a great idea for the frame!

Thanks.

Andy

Re: Jonrezz’s Build Log

Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2022 5:11 pm
by Jonrezz
Hey Andy!

I'd be happy to share more! my press is made of 40x20 v-slot - I got mine from openbuilds.com

Two 760mm (width)
Two 2,365 mm (length)

for hardware:

10mm M5 screws (get some shorter ones too, my latches work but they're a bit wobbly because the screws are a hair too long, not ideal lol)

M5 tee nuts

cast 90 degree corner brackets

90 degree corner plates

the silicone is held on with standard slot covers. I ordered 1000mm lengths and just cut them as needed

The hinges are just standard door hinges from home depot - 3 across the back

the latches are called "Toggle Latch Clamp" on amazon

the silicone sheet is from alibaba - bigger than needed then cut to correct size - https://deerhunter.en.alibaba.com/produ ... 6999FCz38s - Product # DH2211 - 2,600 MM Length x 900 MM Width X 1 MM thickness

The gasket between the table and the frame is this stuff: https://www.veneersupplies.com/products ... -x-39.html

the heat blanket is 1950 mm x 340 mm -Power: 2000 watts -Voltage: 120 volts - also alibaba - https://jymydq.en.alibaba.com/

note - you'll want a dedicated circuit from the electric panel with a local fused disconnect for this - you'll need a 20 amp breaker. you probably don't need the fuse, but its a cheap chinese heat blanket and home-wired pid box so yeah a little sketchy lol.

The PID controller is Auber SYL-2352P. This guy is helpful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Z5rHoHLYQ0. the wiring is all done in a standard electrical box from home depot. I have a wiring diagram a few pages back in this build log.

vacuum pump: Robinair 15500 with a Solberg GL915 coalescing exhaust filter. I've never tried oil-free pumps before - I read that they don't achieve as good of a vacuum, but might be worth a shot because the exhaust filter and replacement filters are expensive. Also the robinair pump works but it eats oil like crazy lol.

Hopefully that gets you started & good luck! let me know if you have any additional questions!

Best,
Jon

Re: Jonrezz’s Build Log

Posted: Mon Oct 24, 2022 2:07 am
by Skiinme
Jon -
This is awesome! Thank you for the wealth of info. Two questions as I poured over the notes:

Where did you source the 2300mm v-slot? I only see it in 2000mm lengths at a few different locations. Can it be added together? I've never worked with it before.
Similarly, does t-bar work? I can get that from McMaster, but I've never used the slot covers, but I'm assuming it is pretty interchangeable.

Second - Any reason you sourced the membrane from Alibaba vice veneer supply? I was going to use this:
https://www.veneersupplies.com/products ... erial.html

Thanks again, this was super helpful.

One last bonus question: what did you make the table you pressed against? Just a melamine white panel cut to size?

Re: Jonrezz’s Build Log

Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2022 7:06 am
by Jonrezz
Happy to help!

The V slot I got from https://openbuildspartstore.com/. they only list a few stock sizes, up to 2000mm, as you mentioned, but if you call or send them a message they'll cut it any length you want as a custom order. you probably can add smaller lengths together with some hardware but imo it's worth it to just get it in a single piece whatever length you need, it'll be more rigid. I cant think of any reason t bar wouldn't work, you'd just need to think about how you're going to attach the silicone to it. the T slot was easy I basically just got some slot covers, stuck the edge of the silicone into the slot and then jammed the cover in over it to hold the silicone in place. works like a charm, no hardware, no glue, nothing. what I like about that is if I replace the silicone itll just pop out and the new one just pops in.

I went to alibaba for the silicone for a couple reasons actually - Mainly, the stuff on veneer supplies is polyurethane not silicone, and my understanding is silicone is much more heat tolerant than polyurethane. The specs on veneer supplies lists the softening point at 150 deg. F, but I cure my skis/boards at 180 deg. F. I was afraid that exceeding the "softening" point would cause permanent deformation or damage to the membrane. Another reason is the silicone is stretchier - Veneer supplies says the polyurethane stretches 6 times its length and width (which is probably sufficient tbh), but the DH2211 material spec is 860% elongation. There's a couple US companies that can supply the silicone too. here's a relevant thread from the forum: http://www.skibuilders.com/phpBB2/viewt ... eet#p52050. same thing for the heat blanket, you can source in the US but it'll cost more. Funny thing is I did end up tearing my silicone on a couple occasions - mostly because I accidentally/carelessly had an edge or corner of the aluminum cassette pressing into the silicone and it ripped - not sure either material would've survived that tbh - I used silpoxy to patch the tears and the original sheet is still kickin'.

yup the table is just a piece of melamine from home depot! you can also get mdf or something and route channels into it for air paths but make sure to seal the mdf before trying to pull a vacuum because it's porous. the way that my mold is designed, air passes through/between the mold itself, but if your mold is solid wood like lots of people, then yeah.

Re: Jonrezz’s Build Log

Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:33 am
by Jonrezz
So it's been a long summer but winters back and so is ski building here at my house!

here's my latest build - it's actually another 170 cm all mountain pair - pretty much the same shape I've made before (I really enjoy the shape!) - here's the specs:

length: 1700 mm
Running Length: 1450 mm
Tip/Waist/Tail: 131,95,121
Stance & Sidecut Setback: 50 mm
Radius (@1700mm) - 17 meters

Layers (from top to bottom) - Hickory Veneer (paper backed), 20 oz triax e-glass, 9mm thick core (poplar/maple), 1" wide uniaxial carbon fiber, 20 oz triax e-glass, base

Core construction is pretty much the same as I've done in the past so I'll skip those pics. One thing I did differently is I cut my core slices really close to the final dimension in order to reduce waste and get more cores from a chunk of wood. when I pour the sidewalls, I use a couple strips of duct tape at the deepest parts of the channel to catch any seepage through the bottom (which is only about a mm of wood).

here's the laser doing it's thing on the topsheet:
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and a short video:
https://imgur.com/rFhjdk3

here's the bases getting edged. I decided to do it right on the table this time - I'm also still using the end nippers. I've tried making a couple of the edge bending jigs shared on this forum but really it's just so clunky in practice, with all of the edge flailing around while I wrestle with the bender fixed to something, that I think at this point I'm just faster with the nippers. The radius also isn't consistent through the tip so that complicates using the vice jig.:

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in the press:
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and the wonderful sight of a successful layup! Something I figured out for this build is to use some small nails (outside the ski footprint) to keep the topsheet aligned instead of it sliding around while the vacuum is pulling, then having to open the press, readjust, and repeat. I just hammered them in a bit then clipped the rest of the nail off so it's flush. The second thing I did different is I used hot glue for my core alignment pins instead of super glue. way faster and easier.
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all cleaned up and cut out:
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that's that project. I'm currently working on a new shape for my friend whose a telemark skiier - should be interesting - they're going to be some sort of big-mountain hybrid type ski - I'm thinking similar to elan ripstick 106's. I'm also going for an asymmetrical tip and tail shape which should end up pretty neat lookin'. I'll share more once I start finalizing some design parameters!

hope you're all enjoying the beginning of ski season!

-Jon

Re: Jonrezz’s Build Log

Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:19 am
by chrismp
Great build and props on the improved workflow! I feel like there's always some detail that can still be improved.

As for the edge bender I feel you - that's exactly the reason why I only use nippers. Once you have some practice the nippers can actually be pretty quick.

Small tip for edging the bases without a template: make sure to check if the base actually conforms to your desired ski shape by laying it on an accurate template (we use the finished core with sidewalls for this). After cutting the base material it can warp quite significantly and will be held in that shape by the edges. We've had base material warp a few millimeters from the desired shape, so now we always clamp them in shape onto our finished cores during edging. The edges then keep the base in shape. If your bases are in shape after cutting anyway - lucky you.

Re: Jonrezz’s Build Log

Posted: Tue Dec 06, 2022 8:40 am
by Jonrezz
Thanks for the tip! Yeah, I've had some trouble in the past with warped bases - at some point a handful of builds ago I discovered the issue I was having - the base itself actually remains the correct shape and matches my core with sidewalls - I do make sure to get the edges onto the base in the same day or so that I cut the base so the plastic doesn't really get the opportunity to warp over a long period of time, but in the past I would clamp the base down, bend the edges and clamp the edges on as I went, but I wasn't bending close enough and pushing the edges against the base before clamping, so the edges would pull the base out of square. Now that I'm bending the edges more precisely and making sure they line up with the core before clamping, they sort of just fall into place, I haven't really had a warping or misalignment issue. On this pair the base matched the core really well during layup! I think the lesson learned is make sure the edges match the core (as you said) precisely before clamping them to the base.

Re: Jonrezz’s Build Log

Posted: Wed Dec 07, 2022 7:36 am
by chrismp
Good to hear you got that covered! With some base material we had in the past it would warp right when we took it off the CNC - that was crazy.

Re: Jonrezz’s Build Log

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 7:32 am
by Jonrezz
Chrismp- That's strange - did you ever discover why you were getting warp right off the cnc? I use a 1/8" spiral upcut bit to cut the core material and make sure to let it rest with weight on it until it sits pretty much flat on its own before cutting.

I finished my next build! here's a couple finished shots of them:

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They're 170 cm, 134/96/113, and 2.2/9/2.2 tip/center/tail core thickness, poplar with maple stringers, 19 oz eglass and 1" uni carbon fiber under the core. We're really happy with the (medium) flex - for reference he's 5'9" and 160 lbs.

The idea for this pair is a very traditional looking top (it's quarter-sawn redwood veneer), with wacky looking non-matching bases. I got the base patters from mid-journey - for those of you not familiar, its an AI text to image software. extremely addicting and a real game changer for someone like me who is not really an artist and has very basic photoshop skills to be able to come up with some really neat/professional looking graphics without worrying about copyright or hiring artists. I started by asking mid journey for a bunch of geometric shapes in specific colors, then faded & tiled it all together! - here's the link:
https://www.midjourney.com/home/

Once I was happy with my graphics, I used codaboards.com to sublimate my bases.

I dyed the sidewalls to match the bases:
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here's my base print being cut to shape:
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and edges:
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A little more on my camber mold setup:

I use AutoCAD to come up with my "camber mold setup" - I take the camber mold I want for the ski (the red lines in the image below), adjust the camber height a few mm to account for top only heat in my press, and then place it on cad blocks of my mold. I then adjust the length of the mold in autocad so the tip & tail heights/lengths look right, and go from tip to tail choosing "block" sizes that match the camber to the nearest 1/2mm. the double line accounts for the 5.5mm thick underlay I use to smooth things out under the cassette. I decided to use my early rise tip/tail molds but didn't bother adjusting the red lines to match so that's what that discrepancy is about - turned out fine though:
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here's some images of the mold setup:
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in total, so far, I have 157 "spacer/height blocks" ranging from 0 to 20 mm high, as well as 3 sets of tip/tail molds - one for snowboards, one for early rise and one for on-piste skis. I've reached a point where I don't really need to make more of these (thank god), if I do its generally one or two more here and there:
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here's the layup & rough out in timelapse (or maybe I actually do work that fast :D 8) :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYVZfca ... Fl&index=6

a couple shots of the resulting camber:
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Side note: I finally gave that olive ash snowboard in the background to it's intended owner this weekend - we went to gore mountain. conditions were, well, not the best, but still had fun!


Last week I was at mammoth mountain to visit my friend who these skis were for & it was a blast! here's a couple shots - him with his new ride:
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and here's a few of me on my Matterhorn inlay skis I made last year - this was avalanche chutes off of chair 22. unfortunately 9 and 23 were closed due to the storms. After about 11 days on them so far, I'd say they're holding up great and look like they're going to last for years to come! unfortunately I don't get the opportunity to go 40+ times per winter anymore.

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that's me on the right - my skis and my wife's next to them. I'm going to make her a pair at some point too but she's being indecisive about the graphics she wants.

Re: Jonrezz’s Build Log

Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 12:20 am
by chrismp
Another great pair!

We use the same type of mold and when you reach the state where you only need to make a couple of new blocks is only beaten by the first time you don't have to cut any new blocks for a mold haha

As for the base warping, this happens due to internal stresses of the base material that get released when cutting the base. On sublimated bases it's often less pronounced as the high heat releases some of the stress. We always check our bases by placing them on the cores with the sidewalls already poured. This way it's easy to see if they match up well.

If not, the base is usually a bit banana shaped when looking at it from the top. If that happens we clamp the base onto the core in the right shape (the deviation is usually only around 1-3mm) and attach the edges while it's clamped. The edges then keep the base in it's intended shape.

Re: Jonrezz’s Build Log

Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2023 1:06 pm
by Tallguy
Great projects!
I see you use the laser both on flat veneer and on finished skis/snowboards.
Don't you have laser focusing problems on finished skis due to the camber and core profile? Or do you have a work around?
grtz,
Bert

Re: Jonrezz’s Build Log

Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:55 am
by antoxasam
Great skis! I have a question about your vacuum press: is your vacuum pump running all the time the skis are glued? or do you reach a vacuum, turn off the pump and the vacuum does not drop due to the lack of air leakage?

Re: Jonrezz’s Build Log

Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:09 pm
by Jonrezz
Thanks guys!

Regarding the laser - the laser module sits on z rails and has some vertical position and focus dial adjustability, but tbh, I usually don’t mess with it (after having initially set it up) - I haven’t had an issue with switching between veneer and right on the ski. Id say it’s not a big enough difference in height to noticeably alter the results.

Regarding the vacuum- I run the vacuum pump the whole time it’s being glued/cured. While the pump is on, it maintains a good negative pressure, between 26 - 27 inhg. As soon as I turn the pump off it loses pressure pretty quickly lol. It seems to be doing the job well though despite its leaks so I’m inclined to leave the air leaks alone hahah. I suspect the quick connect fitting under the table is leaking air, and also the seal where it goes thru the bottom of the table isn’t perfect either. I siliconed the crap out of it, idk. Those are probably the two areas it’s leaking the most. the vac pump is 5 cfm so it has some fight in it lol.

I’m currently brainstorming for my next build.. I want to make myself a snowboard (up till now all the boards I built have been for other people). I don’t snowboard as often as I ski but it’s fun to switch it up here and there! Im pretty set on 157cm length and 293/253/293 tip/waist/tail, hybrid (M shape) camber, and I know I want to challenge myself with some sort of intricate engraving/marquetry type topsheet - just haven’t decided on the graphic.

For the base, I want to dial in my donek knife and start doing cool stuff with that too - when I did some trial runs I was having issues with over rotation of the blade causing awful accuracy. I remember seeing a guide in these forums from the whiteroom guy, I need to go back to it and read up. I think it’s the blade offset value that I have to mess with.

Anyway, cheers!