justin,
great insight into the autoclave process!!! this is something that i am sure to pursue as it fascinates me and i believe will add to my "fun factor" in building skis and boards. i understand you points in its questionably noticable effect for sporting goods, but i do think that, if cost effective, it eases the transition to higher pressure molding for people who are used to their vacuum layup. We have been using vacuum molding for years and a vertical press changes our process much more than adding a pressure chamber. plus it has the added benefit of still only needing one side of a mold. Also, it seems that the pressure in all directions feature would help make capped skis when every pair we make isnt shaped the same as the next (so making a top cassette every time becomes excessive). have you worked with this process before, and if so...tell me, are autoclaves at least fun to use?
New to SkiBuilders and looking to build a hydraulic skipress
Moderators: Head Monkey, kelvin, bigKam, skidesmond, chrismp
Thank you for the compliment G-man. I usually am sounded off as a windbag. I think sometimes I come across a little jadded about the snowsports industry.
Geoff,
I am building a pnuematic press using the track system, currently. I am also trying a new mold system.
In the past I have build both pnuematic and hydraulic with and without form blocks and cat track variants.
I will say that my experiences with a bow press in junior high helped me immensly in my adult life. To wit, I've not found anyting that is a huge divergence in technology on what most u.s. high school shops use.
You can use anything that will hold the pressure as a bladder.
Most people use fire hose. I like the kind that come off of oil tankers, as they are wide and very durable.
The trick is to find used hose for very little money or free.
You can ask your local fire brigade what they do with their old hoses or hang around used ship chandlers at docks to see if you can find a deal.
Heater blankets can be home made but most professionals and amatuers alike usually order custom blankets from supply houses. Basically they are just rubber with a wire running through them that is heated via current--think thermal floor home heating systems and its basically the same idea in miniature. Thermo couplers control the on off switch when they hit preset temps. You can build them with a range of heat settings, controlled by a brain or buy thermocouplers with preset heat ratings.
They are made in 220 and 110 in the U.S. and corresponding ratings for Europe.
One bit of caution for anyone that is using 220 and more than one blanket (top and bottom) is to make sure everything is grounded properly and that even two circuits that are in close proximity on a metal strucure like a steel press can present a shock hazard if you touch both at the same time.
I have more than once had 220 go through my body with the simple act of cleaning the caul plates in the press by touching both circuits. Lucky for me I never drew any amps, but boy is it a straaange feeling.
At this point I'm not sure if my home press will be 110 or 220. I have both running to my garage. And I'm still hesitant around 220!!!!
Geoff,
I am building a pnuematic press using the track system, currently. I am also trying a new mold system.
In the past I have build both pnuematic and hydraulic with and without form blocks and cat track variants.
I will say that my experiences with a bow press in junior high helped me immensly in my adult life. To wit, I've not found anyting that is a huge divergence in technology on what most u.s. high school shops use.
You can use anything that will hold the pressure as a bladder.
Most people use fire hose. I like the kind that come off of oil tankers, as they are wide and very durable.
The trick is to find used hose for very little money or free.
You can ask your local fire brigade what they do with their old hoses or hang around used ship chandlers at docks to see if you can find a deal.
Heater blankets can be home made but most professionals and amatuers alike usually order custom blankets from supply houses. Basically they are just rubber with a wire running through them that is heated via current--think thermal floor home heating systems and its basically the same idea in miniature. Thermo couplers control the on off switch when they hit preset temps. You can build them with a range of heat settings, controlled by a brain or buy thermocouplers with preset heat ratings.
They are made in 220 and 110 in the U.S. and corresponding ratings for Europe.
One bit of caution for anyone that is using 220 and more than one blanket (top and bottom) is to make sure everything is grounded properly and that even two circuits that are in close proximity on a metal strucure like a steel press can present a shock hazard if you touch both at the same time.
I have more than once had 220 go through my body with the simple act of cleaning the caul plates in the press by touching both circuits. Lucky for me I never drew any amps, but boy is it a straaange feeling.
At this point I'm not sure if my home press will be 110 or 220. I have both running to my garage. And I'm still hesitant around 220!!!!
Last edited by justin56 on Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
mattman, I can appreciate the need to extend an investment.
I have been involved in the same dilema, however we found a way to use the same casettes as we used in a vaccum press in a pnuematic one.
Also, one can always look into a freer and more adaptable mold system.
I've built some that were expandable, others that were only limited by length or at the very least where the contact points for any upturn on tips and tails (could use the same mold for any width).
Each mold systems has its own drawback. Some are easy for the press operator to use and clean, while making it difficult to finish out the end product and vise versa. It is difficult to please everyone with a sinlge
system.
but don't think you need to change your molds to use a pnuematic or even a hydraulic press. You may just need to rethink your press design to make it work with your current mold system.
Unfortunately, I'm an old man. I've only been around multi-million dollar autoclaves.--the ones that the big corporations brought to the industry and the ones aerospace manfacturers and the government now sell as 'surplus.' When I was working with them, there really was not a commercial alternative that was cost effective for the ski or snowboard manufacturer, at least not one that could compete in pricing to a self-built pnuematic press.
I'm not partial to vaccum or autoclaves, mainly because I always worked in a high cycle and output manufacturing environment, where those two technologies can't compete against platten presses---unit for unit. Some companies have managed to use them and still do, but I bet that their production schedules are not something they are proud of. Also, from a managment perspective they are probably less scaleable to meet increased production demands.
I do have close friends that swear by vaccum presses, but then they are the zen-ghurus of the vaccum press. Watching them work five presses at once is like watching a dance. I don't think I have the right disposition to be one. I'm probably too impatient! If you can build an autoclave cheaply, I say go for it. There is nothing wrong with using one.
I have been involved in the same dilema, however we found a way to use the same casettes as we used in a vaccum press in a pnuematic one.
Also, one can always look into a freer and more adaptable mold system.
I've built some that were expandable, others that were only limited by length or at the very least where the contact points for any upturn on tips and tails (could use the same mold for any width).
Each mold systems has its own drawback. Some are easy for the press operator to use and clean, while making it difficult to finish out the end product and vise versa. It is difficult to please everyone with a sinlge
system.
but don't think you need to change your molds to use a pnuematic or even a hydraulic press. You may just need to rethink your press design to make it work with your current mold system.
Unfortunately, I'm an old man. I've only been around multi-million dollar autoclaves.--the ones that the big corporations brought to the industry and the ones aerospace manfacturers and the government now sell as 'surplus.' When I was working with them, there really was not a commercial alternative that was cost effective for the ski or snowboard manufacturer, at least not one that could compete in pricing to a self-built pnuematic press.
I'm not partial to vaccum or autoclaves, mainly because I always worked in a high cycle and output manufacturing environment, where those two technologies can't compete against platten presses---unit for unit. Some companies have managed to use them and still do, but I bet that their production schedules are not something they are proud of. Also, from a managment perspective they are probably less scaleable to meet increased production demands.
I do have close friends that swear by vaccum presses, but then they are the zen-ghurus of the vaccum press. Watching them work five presses at once is like watching a dance. I don't think I have the right disposition to be one. I'm probably too impatient! If you can build an autoclave cheaply, I say go for it. There is nothing wrong with using one.