Quantifying epoxy and cost per board.

[prospectsnow]

Made some calls about epoxy today to get some pricing. After reading through the numbers of hundreds of different epoxies and then trying to find cost it gets a little overwhelming. I have a few models on price, but maybe someone can help make sense of the engineering stats?

I called Applied Poleramics because they mention a ski/snowboard specific combo. They seem cheap. A 5 gallon resin, 1 gallon hardener is $260 and was $80 shipping to the midwest. This would be $14.16 per board on a 24 board run.

The QCM combo is $280 for the same kit and about $100 in shipping to me. This comes out This would be $15.80 per board on a 24 board run.

Entropy is $439 for a 6 gallon kit plus $35 for shipping or about $19.75 per board.

Snowboardmaterials.com has the combo for 725, or a $30 per board.

Are the costs in line with what everyone else gets and has anyone ever used applied poleramics? They said they used to supply glissade and don't do much in the industry anymore.

If I have done a bad job searching the forum I'll buy everyone an ice cream bar.

Hope this helps someone.

[Richuk]

These guys provide a number of different systems, so hopefully they maybe more open to discussing the technical stuff

http://www.huntsman.com/advanced_materi ... URE_SG.pdf

Mines a raspberry ripple

btw, do you lay up on a heated table?

[MontuckyMadman]

ice cream snadwich.
20 bucks a pair of skis in resin for entropy yep.

[prospectsnow]

I've been meaning to call huntsman, I'm going to do that tomorrow. I don't have a heated table and didn't think of it, Press is.

Why heat the layup? Make a side of hashbrowns?

Montucky, sounds like you like the entropy despite the price. The low toxicity is damn near appealing enough for me.

[skidesmond]

I use QCM, 1gal/1qt system comes to about $25 per set of skis.

[Richuk]

If you heat the lay up table the fabric wets out more easily and you use less epoxy - 20%. At least this is what I found with the epoxy I use.

I have been told that if you are using carbon or aramid fibres, it is method optimises the fabric.

You only need a surface temp of about 40 degrees C. I leave the fibre on the top for a few minutes and then add the epoxy. The epoxy will have sat on the table for a few minutes before use. Once it is saturated, it can be removed and set aside, if that is your process (Swell Panik et al). It might not be the best approach for large production, but in the initial stages, any saving on costs are a bonus.

Heated table probably over-states the set up - just a carbon/silicone heater with PE painter sheeting over it...

If this works for you, please post, so we can all save cash and build more skis!

[ben_mtl]

I built a kind of "hot box" to store my resin just under my layout table. temperature is stable @ 27 degreesC. When I'm about to layup a pair I pre-weight a few cups of resin (200g each) and it goes back into the "hot box".
When I need resin I take one cup at a time, add the hardener (which is also stored in the "hot box").. having exactly 200g of resin I just have to pour 50g of hardener, no brainer !
By doing so my resin has the perfect consistency without sacrifying the orking time. I might give a try at the heated table too !

One thing I've been too lazy to try last season is to just use a pump for the hardener, I would just need to calculate how much resin I need to have ready for, let's say, 2 strokes of the pump... and it would be a even bigger no brainer !

[falls]

I wouldn't rely on the pumps ben. Measuring by weight like you are doing is the best way I think.
From what I have read having the resin in the warming cupboard is a good thing to do. The articles however have said not to keep the hardener in there as well. I think that having warm resin and warm hardener will reduce your "open" time before the epoxy gels.

[Richuk]

Naagh!

Say you have an 'open time' of 45 mins @ 25 degrees. The fabric and epoxy is on the table for 1 - 2 mins at 40 degrees and once it is wetted out, it is taken away from the heat and return to surrounding temp. The surrounding temp is 10 degrees, because it is winter. Clearly if it is summer, you might want to lay up in the evening.

Putting it another way, I've been doing this for about a year, I considered the issue you raise, but I've not seen an issue. I have reduced epoxy usage from 1000g to 750g. I don't spend much time wetting out, I'm not effected by the surrounding temp, the process limits the potential for damaging the surface of the fibre and maximise the potential of the fibre used.

As the epoxy we use is expensive, its a no brainer, as no extra materials are required to achieve this.

I did think about whether the irregular heat cycle has an effect on the epoxy. Haven't done the research on the specific heat cycle, but if you look at how prepreg is made http://www.advanced-composites.co.uk/da ... -Rev05.pdf , then I assumed the answer is 'no' at best or 'nominal' at worst.

[ben_mtl]

Actually the gel time with the method I use is not a concern, I've never had any issue with the resin starting to "kick" before I'm done.
Actually it's not exactly true but here comes the second point :
My main concern with the resin I use is viscosity, the viscosity temperature between a resin mix @20C or @25C is huge ! When unsing resin @20C it's way harder to wet the fiberglass, everything is gooey (sp ?), it's a mess -» it takes more time and I can feel the resin kicking just before I put the layup in the press.
@25C everything goes smooothly, wetting the fabric is just too easy. I can go ways faster !

By the way I don't think I ever said it here but I don't use the same resin as most of you here... I use Cridel Thermoset resins : resin is ER100, hardener EH406. They say it's a resin specifically designed for snowsports.
The hardener I use is a regular one but I know they also have a faster hardener... I'd like to give it a try to Entropy but shipping / import taxes are killing me, Cridel ships from Toronto (for Canada, but they have a facility in the US) so it's much more affordable.

[skidesmond]

I wouldn't rely on the pumps ben. Measuring by weight like you are doing is the best way I think.
From what I have read having the resin in the warming cupboard is a good thing to do. The articles however have said not to keep the hardener in there as well. I think that having warm resin and warm hardener will reduce your "open" time before the epoxy gels.

I had that experience. I had warmed both the resin and hardener, mixed it in a red cup (the red beer cups...). By the time I had applied the resin on the base, applied VDS and 1/2 way through the 1st layer of FG, the resin left in the cup melted the cup and was hot. Less than 10 min had past. Of course I thought the ski was F'ed up at this point because the resin in the cup kicked-in. But the ski was fine.

I think the fact that the resin was in a small container allowed it to setup faster(?) or couldn't dissipate the heat, IDK, but after that I started using a larger mixing container and haven't had the problem.

But warming up the resin is a good idea, you will use less and wetting out the FG is much easier.

[falls]

good points all
For me also the major issue is viscosity (sicomin). Making skis in winter vs summer is a huge difference in wetting out time and ease! The easiest pair we made was on a summer evening at 28 degrees C - everything pretty much wet out by itself!

Rich I see your good point that warmth makes the whole process quicker and less effort working the epoxy into the glass, so any reduction in "open" time is not an issue (if there is any reducstion at all anyway). I like your heated table idea, and hopefully will make one if/when I have a dedicated and bigger ski building space!

Desmond. Certainly epoxy in smaller vessels will kick faster. more thermal mass in a more concentrated space. Perhaps having prewarmed the resin and hardener added even further initial energy to this equation. Definitely good working in larger vessels.

[prospectsnow]

Wonder if a consumer grade heat blanket would get hot enough to at least keep the resin thin during the winter months. $50 vs. $500? Could even nap on the layup table since building takes up life.

I haven't gotten a chance to call huntsman. Richuk, would you be willing to spill the price and A/B combo you are using?

Talked to a few people and anyone doing commercially should be at $10-12 per board. Given that is probably with a pair of 55 gallon drums.

Talked to a local resin supplier today that sells for a number of bigger companies. Believe it or not, the Midwest is not a marketing hotbed for resin suppliers that specialize in snowsports. He suggested that resins are a little more created equal than we perceive because they market to what will sell locally. The consensus here seems to be to get someone that specializes in snowsports, which I agree with. Anyone have words that suggest otherwise?

[Richuk]

Epoxy is a real pain for me ... I'm not using Huntsman, I posted the link because the have a clear interest in our market. As they are a US based company, I thought they may cut you guys a deal. If I remember correctly, Erik is using there products. I'm aware that Huntsman is doing a lot of innovating things at the moment.

I've tried low wattage carbon heaters, bit tricky. If you have a sleeping blanket ... might be worth a try, but then you need to add a sheet of AL and give yourself an even heat. Given what has been said about how close the temperatures can be between unworkable and optimal, it is worth running a test. I've put a number on what I am using, which isn't that helpful ... the process is however!

If the prices keep going up, it won't be longer before something like this is worth considering:
http://www.monstermarketplace.com/woodw ... oller-head

[falls]

Still using sicomin Rich?

I'm using sicomin SR8500 / SZ8525. Ski specific epoxy.
I had to get it shipped from Europe by boat to a supplier in Asutralia and then to me. I think about 7 pairs of skis worth was A$250. So what's that, pretty expensive, $35 a pair.