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Flame treating plastics for adhesion
Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:10 am
by doughboyshredder
This is getting lost in the mix, and I feel it's important enough to have it's own thread.
I have been saying for a long time that you should be flame treating immediately before layup. I found this pdf the other day that strongly backs up my assertion. It basically says that the treatment from the manufacturer wears off upon contact with untreated material. Contact with the other untreated side of the material seems to do the most damage. Of course when the material is rolled for shipping it is in contact with the untreated side. Furthermore, it goes on to say, that the most unreliable treatment is from the manufacturer only, with at the manufacturer and at the press being the most reliable treatment.
In summary, if you want to reduce your potential delamination problems you need to be treating your plastic before layup.
These tests were done with Corona treatments, but the end result of the treatment is the same whether done with Corona or flame. It's a molecular change that is attained.
Quote:
Table 6. Loss of Corona Treatment Tests.
Test Loss
Initial sample just before contact 56
After contacting untreated polyethylene surface on opposite side 39 17
After contacting corona treated polyethylene surface on opposite side 39 17
After contacting bare bleached base sheet on opposite side 43 13
After contacting flame primed bare base sheet on opposite side 39 17
After contacting slip sheeted bleached bond paper 44 12
After contacting slip sheeted bare aluminum foil 45 11
After contacting slip sheeted unbleached paper 49 7
Nontreated polyethylene surface 35
Table 7. Effectiveness Levels of Corona Treatment Degradation.
Most Effective
A moderate treatment by the supplier at the time of manufacture followed by moderate treatment on the press
just before ink laydown. This final treatment can be varied to optimize ink adhesion with heat-sealing
characteristics.
Second Most Effective
Treatment on the press only. This can lead to difficulties if the polyethylene contains slip additives. In any
case, it is much more effective than treating at the time of manufacture as the treated surface will not contact
the other side before it contacts the printing station. Thus, the full results of the treatment still exist at the
point of ink laydown.
Least Effective
Treatment by supplier only. The problems and difficulties encountered have been covered, but a
quick summary follows:
1. Loss of a substantial portion of the treatment.
2. Production of pinholes, blocking, scratches, etc., caused by using extremely high power levels at the
http://www.enerconind.com/files/7f/7fb3 ... d0bf4.pdf
Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:11 am
by doughboyshredder
This is getting lost in the mix, and I feel it's important enough to have it's own thread.
I have been saying for a long time that you should be flame treating immediately before layup. I found this pdf the other day that strongly backs up my assertion. It basically says that the treatment from the manufacturer wears off upon contact with untreated material. Contact with the other untreated side of the material seems to do the most damage. Of course when the material is rolled for shipping it is in contact with the untreated side. Furthermore, it goes on to say, that the most unreliable treatment is from the manufacturer only, with at the manufacturer and at the press being the most reliable treatment.
In summary, if you want to reduce your potential delamination problems you need to be treating your plastic before layup.
These tests were done with Corona treatments, but the end result of the treatment is the same whether done with Corona or flame. It's a molecular change that is attained.
Quote:
Table 6. Loss of Corona Treatment Tests.
Test Loss
Initial sample just before contact 56
After contacting untreated polyethylene surface on opposite side 39 17
After contacting corona treated polyethylene surface on opposite side 39 17
After contacting bare bleached base sheet on opposite side 43 13
After contacting flame primed bare base sheet on opposite side 39 17
After contacting slip sheeted bleached bond paper 44 12
After contacting slip sheeted bare aluminum foil 45 11
After contacting slip sheeted unbleached paper 49 7
Nontreated polyethylene surface 35
Table 7. Effectiveness Levels of Corona Treatment Degradation.
Most Effective
A moderate treatment by the supplier at the time of manufacture followed by moderate treatment on the press
just before ink laydown. This final treatment can be varied to optimize ink adhesion with heat-sealing
characteristics.
Second Most Effective
Treatment on the press only. This can lead to difficulties if the polyethylene contains slip additives. In any
case, it is much more effective than treating at the time of manufacture as the treated surface will not contact
the other side before it contacts the printing station. Thus, the full results of the treatment still exist at the
point of ink laydown.
Least Effective
Treatment by supplier only. The problems and difficulties encountered have been covered, but a
quick summary follows:
1. Loss of a substantial portion of the treatment.
2. Production of pinholes, blocking, scratches, etc., caused by using extremely high power levels at the
http://www.enerconind.com/files/7f/7fb3 ... d0bf4.pdf
Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:11 am
by doughboyshredder
f u k i n blank posts
Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:11 am
by doughboyshredder
This is getting lost in the mix, and I feel it's important enough to have it's own thread.
I have been saying for a long time that you should be flame treating immediately before layup. I found this pdf the other day that strongly backs up my assertion. It basically says that the treatment from the manufacturer wears off upon contact with untreated material. Contact with the other untreated side of the material seems to do the most damage. Of course when the material is rolled for shipping it is in contact with the untreated side. Furthermore, it goes on to say, that the most unreliable treatment is from the manufacturer only, with at the manufacturer and at the press being the most reliable treatment.
In summary, if you want to reduce your potential delamination problems you need to be treating your plastic before layup.
These tests were done with Corona treatments, but the end result of the treatment is the same whether done with Corona or flame. It's a molecular change that is attained.
Quote:
Table 6. Loss of Corona Treatment Tests.
Test Loss
Initial sample just before contact 56
After contacting untreated polyethylene surface on opposite side 39 17
After contacting corona treated polyethylene surface on opposite side 39 17
After contacting bare bleached base sheet on opposite side 43 13
After contacting flame primed bare base sheet on opposite side 39 17
After contacting slip sheeted bleached bond paper 44 12
After contacting slip sheeted bare aluminum foil 45 11
After contacting slip sheeted unbleached paper 49 7
Nontreated polyethylene surface 35
Table 7. Effectiveness Levels of Corona Treatment Degradation.
Most Effective
A moderate treatment by the supplier at the time of manufacture followed by moderate treatment on the press
just before ink laydown. This final treatment can be varied to optimize ink adhesion with heat-sealing
characteristics.
Second Most Effective
Treatment on the press only. This can lead to difficulties if the polyethylene contains slip additives. In any
case, it is much more effective than treating at the time of manufacture as the treated surface will not contact
the other side before it contacts the printing station. Thus, the full results of the treatment still exist at the
point of ink laydown.
Least Effective
Treatment by supplier only. The problems and difficulties encountered have been covered, but a
quick summary follows:
1. Loss of a substantial portion of the treatment.
2. Production of pinholes, blocking, scratches, etc., caused by using extremely high power levels at the
http://www.enerconind.com/files/7f/7fb3 ... d0bf4.pdf
Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:12 am
by doughboyshredder
aaaargggg WTH is going on
This is getting lost in the mix, and I feel it's important enough to have it's own thread.
I have been saying for a long time that you should be flame treating immediately before layup. I found this pdf the other day that strongly backs up my assertion. It basically says that the treatment from the manufacturer wears off upon contact with untreated material. Contact with the other untreated side of the material seems to do the most damage. Of course when the material is rolled for shipping it is in contact with the untreated side. Furthermore, it goes on to say, that the most unreliable treatment is from the manufacturer only, with at the manufacturer and at the press being the most reliable treatment.
In summary, if you want to reduce your potential delamination problems you need to be treating your plastic before layup.
These tests were done with Corona treatments, but the end result of the treatment is the same whether done with Corona or flame. It's a molecular change that is attained.
Quote:
Table 6. Loss of Corona Treatment Tests.
Test Loss
Initial sample just before contact 56
After contacting untreated polyethylene surface on opposite side 39 17
After contacting corona treated polyethylene surface on opposite side 39 17
After contacting bare bleached base sheet on opposite side 43 13
After contacting flame primed bare base sheet on opposite side 39 17
After contacting slip sheeted bleached bond paper 44 12
After contacting slip sheeted bare aluminum foil 45 11
After contacting slip sheeted unbleached paper 49 7
Nontreated polyethylene surface 35
Table 7. Effectiveness Levels of Corona Treatment Degradation.
Most Effective
A moderate treatment by the supplier at the time of manufacture followed by moderate treatment on the press
just before ink laydown. This final treatment can be varied to optimize ink adhesion with heat-sealing
characteristics.
Second Most Effective
Treatment on the press only. This can lead to difficulties if the polyethylene contains slip additives. In any
case, it is much more effective than treating at the time of manufacture as the treated surface will not contact
the other side before it contacts the printing station. Thus, the full results of the treatment still exist at the
point of ink laydown.
Least Effective
Treatment by supplier only. The problems and difficulties encountered have been covered, but a
quick summary follows:
1. Loss of a substantial portion of the treatment.
2. Production of pinholes, blocking, scratches, etc., caused by using extremely high power levels at the
http://www.enerconind.com/files/7f/7fb3 ... ]0bf4.pdf
Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:13 am
by doughboyshredder
I typed a huge post. Copied it when it wouldn't post properly. Pasted it and reposted it, but it always comes out blank.
Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:13 am
by doughboyshredder
Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:14 am
by doughboyshredder
I give up
Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:23 am
by chrismp
hmm, replying seems to work for me. i'd love to see your write-up!
Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:37 am
by doughboyshredder
This is getting lost in the mix, and I feel it's important enough to have it's own thread.
I have been saying for a long time that you should be flame treating immediately before layup. I found this pdf the other day that strongly backs up my assertion. It basically says that the treatment from the manufacturer wears off upon contact with untreated material. Contact with the other untreated side of the material seems to do the most damage. Of course when the material is rolled for shipping it is in contact with the untreated side. Furthermore, it goes on to say, that the most unreliable treatment is from the manufacturer only, with at the manufacturer and at the press being the most reliable treatment.
In summary, if you want to reduce your potential delamination problems you need to be treating your plastic before layup.
These tests were done with Corona treatments, but the end result of the treatment is the same whether done with Corona or flame. It's a molecular change that is attained.
Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:37 am
by doughboyshredder
Quote:
Table 6. Loss of Corona Treatment Tests.
Test Loss
Initial sample just before contact 56
After contacting untreated polyethylene surface on opposite side 39 17
After contacting corona treated polyethylene surface on opposite side 39 17
After contacting bare bleached base sheet on opposite side 43 13
After contacting flame primed bare base sheet on opposite side 39 17
After contacting slip sheeted bleached bond paper 44 12
After contacting slip sheeted bare aluminum foil 45 11
After contacting slip sheeted unbleached paper 49 7
Nontreated polyethylene surface 35
Table 7. Effectiveness Levels of Corona Treatment Degradation.
Most Effective
A moderate treatment by the supplier at the time of manufacture followed by moderate treatment on the press
just before ink laydown. This final treatment can be varied to optimize ink adhesion with heat-sealing
characteristics.
Second Most Effective
Treatment on the press only. This can lead to difficulties if the polyethylene contains slip additives. In any
case, it is much more effective than treating at the time of manufacture as the treated surface will not contact
the other side before it contacts the printing station. Thus, the full results of the treatment still exist at the
point of ink laydown.
Least Effective
Treatment by supplier only. The problems and difficulties encountered have been covered, but a
quick summary follows:
1. Loss of a substantial portion of the treatment.
2. Production of pinholes, blocking, scratches, etc., caused by using extremely high power levels at the
http://www.enerconind.com/files/7f/7fb3 ... d0bf4.pdf
Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:38 am
by doughboyshredder
Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:41 am
by doughboyshredder
Table 6. Loss of Corona Treatment Tests.
Test Loss
Initial sample just before contact 56
After contacting untreated polyethylene surface on opposite side 39 17
After contacting corona treated polyethylene surface on opposite side 39 17
After contacting bare bleached base sheet on opposite side 43 13
After contacting flame primed bare base sheet on opposite side 39 17
After contacting slip sheeted bleached bond paper 44 12
After contacting slip sheeted bare aluminum foil 45 11
After contacting slip sheeted unbleached paper 49 7
Nontreated polyethylene surface 35
The first number is the reading of the test sample before contact, second number is after contact. You can see that a sample after treating and after contact with it's untreated side, is only marginally better than an untreated surface.
Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:42 am
by doughboyshredder
Table 7. Effectiveness Levels of Corona Treatment Degradation.
Most Effective
A moderate treatment by the supplier at the time of manufacture followed by moderate treatment on the press
just before ink laydown. This final treatment can be varied to optimize ink adhesion with heat-sealing
characteristics.
Second Most Effective
Treatment on the press only. This can lead to difficulties if the polyethylene contains slip additives. In any
case, it is much more effective than treating at the time of manufacture as the treated surface will not contact
the other side before it contacts the printing station. Thus, the full results of the treatment still exist at the
point of ink laydown.
Least Effective
Treatment by supplier only. The problems and difficulties encountered have been covered, but a
quick summary follows:
1. Loss of a substantial portion of the treatment.
2. Production of pinholes, blocking, scratches, etc., caused by using extremely high power levels at the treater.
Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:55 am
by mattman
the numbers are certainly intimidating...but I have never had a problem with bases delaminating from the glass. Do you use a thin, wide torch head to treat bases prior to layup?