Experiment Poly-U Glue vs Epoxy

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skidesmond
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Experiment Poly-U Glue vs Epoxy

Post by skidesmond »

Since skiing is over for me this season I decided to run some tests in the off season. The objectives for the tests are:
1. Compare the strength of different layups materials.
2. Determine if Polyurethane Glue (Gorilla Glue) is a suitable bonding agent.
3. Compare strength differences between epoxy and Polyurethane Glue.

Hopefully you’ll find this information useful.

I started the tests with poly-u glue first since I wanted to see how well it bonds. The reason I chose a cork layup is because someday I’d like to start using it in a ski, perhaps a “green” ski to provide a dampening effect.

All materials below measure 3in wide x 36in long (76.2mm x 914.4mm). Each sample contains 2 layers of maple veneer for the core. All samples were pressed separately without heat.

I plan on conducting more tests with other materials as time goes on.


Material list to date:

FG - Triax 20 oz with 7 carbon fiber strips
Core - maple 1/16in thick (1.6mm)
Cork - .8mm (www.corkstore.com)
AL - .24mm thick (sanded using 80 grit to increase adhesion)
Epoxy - QCM EMV 0049 resin ECA 032 hardener
Polyurethane Glue - Gorilla glue (approx 14 fluid oz used in the 3 tests).
Water - I dampened all the materials before layup as suggested by the makers of Gorilla glue.
VDS
Ptex base
30lb weight (13.6 kilo)
Wixey Digital Angle gauge model WR300 to measure angle of deflection


Layup Samples:
Image

Observations:
As expected the metal layup was extremely firm. I used VDS with the AL to provide better adhesion. It retained 5mm camber where the others had little or no camber. The FG layup was the next firmest with the cork being the softest. No surprise here.


Bonding Results:
No problems with the bonding of materials using Polyurethane glue. As expected the Fiber Glass layup required the most amount of glue in order working into the fibers.

The glue expands 4-5 times when curing. I wondered how this would affect the bonding of the materials. But all the layups bonded firmly.


Torsion testing:
I set up a simple torsion apparatus similar to the ones used in the links below: http://www.skibuilders.com/phpBB2/viewt ... c&start=90
http://www.doctorsnowboard.co.uk/?page_id=305

I noticed during my testing the position of the torsion apparatus in relation to the samples is important as the measurements could vary during the tests if the setup was not consistent from one test to the next.

I conducted torsion tests at a single 6in interval on each sample using a 30lb weight to twist each sample. I zeroed out the Angle meter before conducting each test and then applied the weight.

I’m considering on designing a more reliable torsion apparatus. I noticed as was I testing the sample layups were also bending upward slightly. While I did not want that to occur, I couldn’t prevent it so I had to be as consistent as possible with the setup and positioning of the apparatus.


Torsion Results:
Image

Looking at the numbers above, the metal sample is twice as firm as the FG sample and nearly 4 times more firm than the Cork sample at the 6 inch mark.


Deflection testing:
Each sample layup was clamped 6inches from each end to work tables. A 30lb weight was suspended from the center of the samples. I measured the amount of deflection in millimeters at the center point.

Deflection Results:
Image

Here's some pics:
Fiber glass layup:
Image

Metal layup:
The pic only shows 1 layer of AL but there are 2. One is on the bottom.
Image

Poly-U glue expands:
I was little surprised by the amount the glue expanded. Thought this might weaken the layup but all seems fine.
Image

The sample layups:
Image

Testing Cork:
If I didn't clamp the ends down the cork layup would have folded in half. I did all the Deflections test like this. Notice my high tech weights :)
Image

Random test:
Wanted to see what epoxy, poly-u glue and wood glue look like when applied to fiber glass. Wood glue is useless. The fiber glass almost cracked when I flexed it. The Poly-u sample flexed evenly like the epoxy sample but seemed to flex easier. The epoxy gave a nice firm even flex.

Image

Over the next 2-3 weeks I'll repeat the sample layups using epoxy and then compare against poly-u glue.
Last edited by skidesmond on Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:31 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Brazen
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Post by Brazen »

That is incredible test work SD. Thanks for the valuable info.
"86% of the time it works 100% of the time".
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Sane
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Post by Sane »

SD some nice work there. I have really enjoyed reading many of your posts on this forum as I have recently decided to start researching building techniques and to move forward with pressing some of my own skis. I have a few questions for you in regards to the aluminum, if you'd be so inclined.

What type of aluminum did you use for the test? Did you have any bonding issues with the aluminum? Did you have any permanent deformation of the materials from your testing?
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Post by skidesmond »

Thanks guys. I had to do something w/ the left over material :)
btw- I updated the Deflection chart with correct numbers. I realized today I didn't have the full 30lbs of weight when I did the test, I was short 1 brick.

The AL I used was metal flashing, something you can get at the home center. Pretty thin stuff but it made the samples quite a bit firmer. No bonding issues yet. I haven't tried to ripped it apart yet. I'm sure with enough force I could rip it off. It does flex w/o and noticeable weakening of the bond or delamination.
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Post by Brazen »

I that case, I'm thinkin' that if you had a time machine, you would go back and convince yourself that cork is not a good choice?
"86% of the time it works 100% of the time".
skidesmond
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Post by skidesmond »

Cork certainly does make for a soft board. But now I know how soft. Still not ruling it out just yet. Given the thickness of my samples they're basically about the thickness of a tip/tail will have on a ski. Mixed in with a real core of say 2-10-2 or 2-12-2 may work. I'm thinking of making another sample, replacing a layer of cork w/ another layer of veneer.

Trying to determine if cork works as a dampening element as well, given the right mix.

Awhile back I contacted a guy from Cork Core. I think he told me that Burton was interested in cork. Not sure if he told me that or if it was Dr. Delam. Either way, never heard back from Core Cork.
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Post by MontuckyMadman »

but your cork core is half the thickness .8mm vs 1.6mm?
I see some inconsistent results do to inconsistent baselines. Am I missing something?
I think a heat cure would yield dramatically different results with the epoxy.
wait and the cork has no composite?
seems as though you are testing several different things that are not comparable?
sammer wrote: I'm still a tang on top guy.
skidesmond
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Post by skidesmond »

Yup the cork is .8mm and the veneer is 1.6mm and it's plain cork like a cork bulletin board. I would consider my baseline the FG layup. All the skis I've made so far except for 1 or 2 all had the basic FG layup (wood core, FG above and below, VDS, etc) with various wood core dims. I have a pretty good feel for that and now I have some basic numbers for that kind of layup.

The idea of cork came about when I made the "going old school ski" that was all wood. It has a typical wood core, then I re-enforced it with layers of wood veneer, even a wood base and used Poly-U glue. The ski was very firm. I never really got to rip on it because of the wood base, very slow.... But I'm assuming if I did I'd get some chatter on hard pack at high speed because it's all wood. So I thought cork may absorb some of that vibration, so take a layer of veneer out and add a layer of cork, making it a little softer and maybe absorb vibration.

On my GSComp 180 ski I used for racing turned out quite good but when I really jammed on it on an icy course the ski would chatter/hop a bit. Cork to the rescue? or Metal or something else? maybe just a metal plate on top (read about that in the forum somewhere, adding a 3mm metal plate on the top w/ double stick tape reduced vibration when placed 30-40cm from the tip)

Like many others I'm toying around with the idea of making skis (on the side) for sale at a very low volume (10-20 a year at most). I'd like to offer a "greener ski" using wood veneers, cork or some other materials for the environmentally conscious, maybe include hemp in the experiments, Entropy resin, Poly-u glue,.... etc. But I need some idea of what the ski will be like, if the glue will hold and how well, will it be in the ball park of a typical FG layup in terms of durability and performance.....

So comparing the cork layup to the metal layup may seem off base, but it still gives me an idea of the difference between the 2.

At this point I now know the cork layup as it stands is way too soft in every direction, even for a beginner skier. But perhaps using epoxy will make it somewhat firmer? I won't know that until I start making the same layups using epoxy. But my guess is it will still be too soft.

The metal layup would make a really hard/firm ski and I was surprised by how much firmer it was compared to the FG layup.

As for using Poly-U glue... It says it can bond to all sorts of stuff most of which can be found in skis so I figured I try it. The biggest unknown was how it would bond to FG but so far it seems pretty good. It's easy to use, readily available, cheaper because you use less (per ounce it's more expensive but you use less, I estimate 16-18 oz per ski), not as finicky to work with as epoxy and it's less hazardous (so it says).

I agree that a comparison between an epoxy layup and a heated epoxy layup would yield different results too. But I'm not using heat yet. I've been watching all the heat blanket threads so I'm taking notes on that, maybe this year I'll have a heat blanket.
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Post by skidesmond »

Been pretty lazy lately when it comes to laying up the epoxy test pieces. Finally got around to it today/tonight. I'll give the pieces a few days to cure. Tomorrow is expected to be a warm day so I'll let them bake in the sun all day to help cure them.

I'm going to add a new test for torsional rigidity. Basically the same as the other but using a different method. I bought a torque wrench. I'm going to use the torque wrench in conjunction with my digital angle gauge and measure torque vs angle of deflection.

I'll retest the gorilla glue layups as well and re-post the results.

BTSR 3:1
skidesmond
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Post by skidesmond »

The results of the epoxy tests compared to the poly-u glue test surprised my a little bit. Overall I think Poly-U glue works “just about as well” as epoxy. Poly-U Glue bonded to all the materials in the test just as well as epoxy. I expected the epoxy samples to be more firm/ridged. The only big difference between the samples is the epoxy test pieces retained much more camber than the Poly-U glue test pieces.

I will build a ski with FG this year using poly-u glue.

The cork performed poorly in both samples. Not sure if cork will provide the damping effects I thought it could. It definitely does not provide any re-enforcement of any kind. It was super wet noodle boingy boingy ( ie no pop, just flop).

One side note. In the FG epoxy sample, the FG was not thoroughly saturated with epoxy in the area I first measured and it gave a soft reading. I then measured the other end of the sample that was thoroughly saturated and the measurement was more in line with expectations. So lesson learned, always wet out the FG 100%.

This wasn't a problem w/ Poly-U glue since it expands in all directions when it begins to setup.

Here's the technical data:
Image

Image

Image

Image


Comparing all 3 torsion tests:
Image


Comparing the Deflection tests:
Image
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chrismp
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Post by chrismp »

so elan really could be using a bio based polyurethane adhesive?! 8)
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chrismp
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Post by chrismp »

double post :x
Last edited by chrismp on Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by chrismp »

triple post! :evil: (...damn forum)
Last edited by chrismp on Thu Jul 07, 2011 3:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by skidesmond »

It seems possible. The glue bonds to all the materials just as well.
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chrismp
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Post by chrismp »

a ceo of capita snowboards has confirmed that elan is using a polyurethhane resin to build their boards in this interview: http://business.transworld.net/81120/un ... ew-capita/

pretty big news.
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