Ski Builders Forum

I am now convinced that cassettes are a must.

Due to thermal expansion there is absolutely no possible way to ensure a perfect sidecut on a finished board without a cassette. It's simply not possible. Gluing the base down is fine for a prototype, but if you want a consistent product with exact specifications you absolutely must build a cassette that will either restrict expansion or allow a minimal amount in a uniform manner.

I would bet money that if you take any of your finished skis / boards built without a cassette and lay your original sidecut template that they will not match up (assuming a heat cure, of course).

I discovered this today when I realized that the inside edge of my cms's were not perfectly straight, even though they were cut perfectly straight, and the edges were glued perfectly straight. The base and edge expanded in a non uniform matter. Sometimes you might get lucky and have uniform expansion, but I am convinced that if you want a consistent perfect product that some sort of a cassette is essential.

Now on to the process of building a few (or having them built). I have 5 shapes that I am going to stick with for now.

First: Who cut's templates. Second: How are you cutting your sidewalls? I hate to sound this way but I have repeatability to within .009. Partay!

if no template how do you edge?
Base in a ski warps like crazy.

CNC / jig

you stick your fuggckin edges on with the muthufuggckin cnc? WTF?

Brazen wrote:First: Who cut's templates. Second: How are you cutting your sidewalls? I hate to sound this way but I have repeatability to within .009. Partay!

so, you're claiming that you get no expansion during pressing?

What I am saying is that if you put a square base with straight edges on it in a heated press that when it is done curing it will not be straight.

What would the sidewalls have to do with it? I am not talking about the core expanding or contracting.

I believe most of the change actually comes from the heating of the steel edges.

As for who cuts templates, that would be most everyone. Not just micro builders, that's also how most of the boutique builders do it. Prior, ON3P, Donek, etc...

OK ) I'm saying that. I don't mean to sound like it but the temp/time/pressure dictates the issue you're experiencing. You're right about the template...I'm just saying. We don't. And madman, I didn't say that although that might not be a bad idea, having one of our cutters do the placement. Maybe you ARE actually a genius ))

Brazen wrote:OK ) I'm saying that.I'm probably just a doosh but the temp/time/pressure dictates the issue you're experiencing. And madman, I didn't say that although that might not be a bad idea, having one of our cutters do the placement. Maybe you ...nevermind.

Okay, so what pressure, temp, and time are you using?

How many sets have you pressed? I don't remember seeing pics of any of your stuff.

I press at 80 psi, 70 degrees celsius, for 60 minutes.

Sorry. Just trying to help. Didn't mean to ruffle feathers however, in the same breath I'm not going to give up everything in a public blog. It's a hint ffs, no need to get all f'n blargggh, just PM me and I'll try to help. Or...80psi is too much pressure. WAY too much pressure...deformation IS what you're explaining, right? But hey...you're having your skis built somewhere else anyway. Why bother.

Brazen wrote:Sorry. Just trying to help. Didn't mean to ruffle feathers however, in the same breath I'm not going to give up everything in a public blog. It's a hint ffs, no need to get all f'n blargggh, just PM me and I'll try to help. Or...80psi is too much pressure. WAY too much pressure...deformation IS what you're explaining, right? But hey...you're having your skis built somewhere else anyway. Why bother.

ok, now you are being a douche.

edit to say that I just read through all your posts and it seems that when you're drunk you come across like an ass. Not sure if it's intentional or if it's the booze talking.

Accurate templates can be made by hand using a piece of plastic strip and annealed ski edges. I wasn't prepared to spend the money to have it CNC'd when working out other kinks at the same time.

The cassette reduces the amount of waste and flash, but it is difficult to build and bending edges in 3D by hand drains off time and over all accuracy if not done well. P-tex isn't the main issue within a cassette, building one set at a time - cut and use. Yep the cassette stops lateral movement within the press, provided everything else works in sync. Lateral movement can be tricky, in the past I've put it down to 'too much epoxy'. Now the only layer with excess epoxy is the topsheet, otherwise you just trap bubbles.

I'm currently looking into a new cassette design, multi-purpose. I've not have time to think it all through and I won't have time to make it this season. I need to work on understanding materials and evaluating the effect of small changes to the core (ie. the basics)

I've always treated this as 'open source', which means adding information so we all get to a professional finish as quickly as possible, regardless of resources. If you're in business, then sure, you'll take a different view.

DBS, I hope you solve the issue you are having and if I can help, then let me know.

Hey Luca, whenever you want to jump into this!!!

Richuk wrote: I've always treated this as 'open source', which means adding information so we all get to a professional finish as quickly as possible, regardless of resources. If you're in business, then sure, you'll take a different view.

I agree in regards to if you're in business and have developed something that is proprietary in nature, but brazen's post reeked of bullshit. There's nothing special about what pressure you use, and not wanting to share that information defeats the whole purpose of even being here.

That being said he's not the first person to suggest that I am using too high of pressure.

the ski makers, pros, are using upwards of 80 psi.
I think it holds the tip rise better with these new skis with an 8cm rise over 25 cm.
Brazen, the drunkness is near intervention level in my poor estimation.
I may have a similar problem, but I at least read and think somewhat before I post here.

If you want to be a douche go to TGR or the snowboarding equivalent.

I have been called many worse things so thanks.

DBS nailed it.
If you are not going to contribute what you have learned and actual data then don't comment.
This is OPEN SOURCE. Certain things iggy can't or won't share but he does all he can to help all us newbs and amateurs learn. If your a pro then lets see it. If not then tell us what you have learned after laying up 100 boards.

Well! I'll be damned if I'm going to tell you how to make a snowboard from baby whale slices now.

Cassette are extremely helpful when glueing your edges. Just glueing edges on using only clamps isn't going to be the most accurate. If you guys use crown bases, these bases are really sensitive & warp like a mofo as it has been noted. So basically you could be glueing your edges on to a warped base. The best thing possible is to have magnets in your cassette to hold the edges, then you don't glue them on, but thats $$$. Burton didn't glue them on in the N.American facilities(Vermont or Trak). Anyways, the most accurate & consistant way is to have a cassette...at least of the sidecut part. I've used steel edges & have done rivets spaced apart for the sidewalls alignment.

DBS, doing straight sections on a sidecut isn't easy, one you notice if it's not exact & being exact can be tough.

PSI, whatever you want to use, I can't do more than 50psi & that's to the firehose, which I use 2 of them. So the actual pressure is probably closer to 30psi to the board. So 80, might be 50 I guess. I personally rather keep the pressure to around 50, temp around 70c, keep the epoxy to under 40% of the fiberglass weight. This helps with a flatter base, less telegraphing & I don't need a lot of press to squeeze out the epoxy cause that's not the goal. In reality, I get 30psi, end up using too much epoxy & too high of heat since I have wired in my heatblankets correctly