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Happy Monkey’s process
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Head Monkey



Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 239
Location: Carnation, WA

PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2009 11:43 pm    Post subject: Happy Monkey’s process Reply with quote

I’ve started documenting my entire process in (hopefully!) great detail on my web site here: MonkeyWiki, a guide to snowboard construction I figure people here might be interested in this. If anyone has any questions, feel free to ask in this thread and I’ll post an answer, and update the site to reflect it as well. This will take me some time… we took about 370 pictures over the course of the last custom build, and that doesn’t even cover the entire build, but it will all get there eventually.

Edit: updated link.
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Everything I know about snowboard building: MonkeyWiki, a guide to snowboard construction
Free open source ski and snowboard CADCAM: MonkeyCAM, snoCAD-X


Last edited by Head Monkey on Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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ben_mtl



Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Posts: 566
Location: Sherbrooke, Quebec

PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks a lot Mike, it's very informative ! I can't wait to see the other steps of your process !
Everything seems to be well thought, efficient and precise... congratulations !
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Head Monkey



Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 239
Location: Carnation, WA

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks ben_mtl.

New sections on bases, edges, and nose/tail spacers, and on finishing wood veneer top sheets have been added today. There's an RSS feed for the News blog there, and I'll post a note to that blog whenever I make an interesting update to Making a Monkey. I'll post here, too, after every few updates.
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Free open source ski and snowboard CADCAM: MonkeyCAM, snoCAD-X
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KevyWevy



Joined: 27 Oct 2008
Posts: 143
Location: Kirkland, WA

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

those are some sweet clamps you use for the gluing the cores! pretty expensive?

so why do you place an ash stringer in with the ptex sidewall?

thats quite the set-up you have there!

would you be willing to help some fellow builders out with some CNC work for a mold? Very Happy
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twizzstyle



Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 2198
Location: Kenmore, Wa USA

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KevyWevy wrote:

would you be willing to help some fellow builders out with some CNC work for a mold? Very Happy

What he said. Sent you an email Mike Smile
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Head Monkey



Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 239
Location: Carnation, WA

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KevyWevy wrote:
those are some sweet clamps you use for the gluing the cores! pretty expensive?

Here’s the clamps I use to join slices into core blanks, and to re-clamp when inlaying sidewalls: http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2000321/1858/WoodRiver-Clamping-System.aspx Currently on special for $19.99, normally $26.99. I have 7 of them in total, and find that adequate. You make the clamps whatever size you need. You’ll also find that you need to add spacers on either side of your core since the minimum clamping thickness is something like 3/4" or so… that’s the odd white and blue bits you see in the pictures between the clamps and the core.

KevyWevy wrote:

so why do you place an ash stringer in with the ptex sidewall?

I started putting in ash when I was making capped boards. There is really helped with the durability of the edge, and it gave what we felt was a bit damper ride. I’ve kept it in the boards ever since because I like the way it makes the boards feel when carving on hardpack… just seems a little less chattery.

KevyWevy wrote:

thats quite the set-up you have there!

Thanks!

KevyWevy wrote:

would you be willing to help some fellow builders out with some CNC work for a mold? Very Happy

Yup. Let’s chat.
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Free open source ski and snowboard CADCAM: MonkeyCAM, snoCAD-X
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shopvac



Joined: 12 Oct 2008
Posts: 159
Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HeadMonkey, thanks for taking the time to make the detailed journal. The photos are very good quality too. Nice work. I like how you put the ash and ptex right in that slot. That is too cool. If I snowboarded I would definitely want one of your boards! I didn't know you could use polyurethane glue for the ptex sidewalls. If I ever start thinking about doing ptex sidewalls I will keep this in mind.
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Head Monkey



Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 239
Location: Carnation, WA

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shopvac wrote:
I didn't know you could use polyurethane glue for the ptex sidewalls. If I ever start thinking about doing ptex sidewalls I will keep this in mind.


Well, you kinda can Smile I did a number of bonding tests with it a long time ago. You must sand and flame, just like you would to bond with epoxy, and even then the bond is quite weak. Handle with care until laminated!
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ben_mtl



Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Posts: 566
Location: Sherbrooke, Quebec

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mike,

I have questions for you, might seems stupid and all but I was wondering how do you prepare the wood for your cores.
What I do (for ski cores) is I buy some rough wood (ash, poplar, maple), work it through surfacing machine / planer to get smooth planks 3/4" thick. Then I glue 3 planks together (6ft lg x 6in wide x 3/4" thk each).
I then rip this assembly in 1/2" strips, bookmatch and bond them 2 by 2 to have a ski core. I then cut it to shape with a router + template, attach the sidewalls (maple) then run it through the planer to have a flat core ready for profiling.

Here is what doesn't work well : I have big problems glueing the planks together at the first step, I often end-up with a poor bonding with weak spots (not enough glue)... first it's a mess to spread the wood glue in a uniform coat on such a large surface (Titebond 3), then when I clamp everything (16 clamps) I'm sure there are spots where I don't have enough pressure.
- How do you do this ?
- On my last run of cores I used a professional thickness planer and I suspect the finish of the planks (first step) is actually too smooth and it causes problems for bonding. Do you think sanding slightly with coarse grain sandpaper the surfaces I will apply glue to would help ?

Next step : cutting slices !
I do it on a table saw, it does a pretty descent job considering my (non-)skills but I would be curious to know how you do this step : table saw ? band saw ? I found the table saw to generate lots of waste as the blade is quite thick...

I guess that's it for now !

Oh no ! for a step ways further (layup), since I'm using a new resin which is medium viscosity (5000ish cps) I have problems with the VDS rubber getting "pushed" outside the skis when pressing, I believe It's because I put too much resin and the resin flowing outside the skis takes the VDS with it. If there is any trick with this step I'd love to do it... but I guess it's just practicing !

Also (waw, lots of questions finally) I saw 2 schools for the layup process : some prepare all the fabrics and apply resin on the different layers prior to assembly on a separate table, others place the triax (or other component) in place and then pour resin and spread, the add the next layer and so on (like in the skibuilders short clip)...
I thought the first method would be interesting because it gives time to the resin to fully impregnate the fabrics before it's in the ski but it requires more space, more resin (from what I experienced even if the extra resin flows out of the ski under pressure), it's not that time reducing (lack of experience I guess)... anyway I'd love to have your thoughts on that.

Thanks !
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sammer



Joined: 19 Dec 2007
Posts: 889
Location: Fernie B.C.

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ben...
not to hi-jack this thread but,
I've been making my cores using an almost identical process as you
I use a vacuum bag to laminate the 3 planks together with epoxy.
I try to do a couple at a time


hope this helps

sam
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Head Monkey



Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 239
Location: Carnation, WA

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ben_mtl,

I’ll make a section on my site about making the core blanks sometime in the future. Until then, here are the answers to your questions. I don’t have any pictures of this right now, sorry.

1. I use wood that’s machined to 2.5” wide, ~7’ long, and 3/4" thick. From that I can make 4 slices for two cores. It’s much easier to work with a thinner stack, faster to glue up, and most importantly, easier to apply even pressure. I use pipe clamps with 2”x2”x12” cauls, alternating top and bottom along the length of the stack. You don’t need a ton of pressure, just even pressure. Your problem is probably your glue drying before you really get pressure applied. I used to have that problem when I used yellow glue. Use polyurethane glue, like Gorilla Glue or similar. It has a much longer working time that normal yellow glues (typically only 5 min). It looks like the Titebond 3 has a 10 min working time, which is good, but I believe the poly glues are even longer. Apply it by taking the cap off the bottle, and pouring a bead directly on a plank, then spread with a spreader just like you’re laying up a board. This goes much, much faster than using a brush or even rolling.

The clamps: http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2080328/28963/Columbian-34-Pipe-Clamp.aspx



2. The best surface for gluing wood is the smooth surface fresh from a good thickness planer, jointer, or hand plane. You want the pores of the wood open and clean, so you get good penetration of the glue. If you sand, you’ll drive dust down into the pores and clog them, actually yielding a weaker bond.

3. I cut my slices on a band saw. The kerf is smaller, and it’s much, much safer. I’d highly recommend that over a table saw, though of course the table saw does have its place. Unfortunately, this can be tricky. Resawing on a bandsaw is a skill that takes practice, and it requires a well setup bandsaw. I’m not going to go into all of that now… detailing that is a whole lot. See my overall note below instead.

4. The VDS getting pushed out is odd… you may be using too much resin, or it may simply be shifting during the rest of your layup. Check carefully as you go. If it really is getting pushed out then use less resin. You don’t want pools of the stuff lying about as you put the next layer on. Scrape it all off at each layer.

5. I lay my fiberglass layers out on a separate table covered with plastic wrap. I mix my epoxy, then dump half of it onto the two glass layers and spread it out evenly. Then I get to work on the other parts. When I need a layer of glass, I go grab and lay it onto the laminate. If I’ve missed a spot I’ll touch it up at that point, and move on. I like this because it takes half the epoxy mix and gets it into a thin film as quickly as possible, which slows it down.

If you’re making your own cores, you’re a woodworker, whether you want to be or not. Welcome to the club Smile Subscribe to finewoodworking.com, and start reading. Really! How to resaw well, how to setup a bandsaw properly, what blades to use, how to setup a table saw properly and be safe using it, a planer, a jointer, effective clamping, glues and proper glue application, etc. It’s all out there, and it’s all a well studied problem. I don’t have a collection of links for you right now, but I’ll make a note of it and start collecting good ones, then add them to the site at some point.

Good luck!!
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doughboyshredder



Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Posts: 1346

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was lucky enough to get a step by step on core construction at the monkey cage, and I was overwhelmed. Mike does an absolutely incredible job building his cores. They really are works of art.

Quote:
use less resin. You don’t want pools of the stuff lying about as you put the next layer on. Scrape it all off at each layer


I use a serrated piece of scrap tip fill for the last spread on the base, vds, and core. This leaves the right amount of resin in an even spread on the plastic and wood without pooling up.


Just like that.
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ben_mtl



Joined: 31 Mar 2008
Posts: 566
Location: Sherbrooke, Quebec

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 4:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks a lot to all of you for those answers ! very very informative and helpful as usual !

Sammer -> I'm thinking of using my press to laminate wood planks... just need to find the time to make a flat mold that will go over the fixed camber part of my mold.

Mike -> I won't thank you for each and every advise you gave... just a huge "thanks" for another great post !
For the VDS I really think the problem is having too much resin. Since I switched to this new resin, which is way thicker, I use a lot more resin. I never experienced problems with VDS shifting with my old resin system (West) and I'm pretty sure the VDS is in a good position when I stick the cassette in the press.

doughboyshredder -> I'll make a scaper like this one and give it a try ! thanks !


Back to the original topic, can't wait to see more of the process !
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Head Monkey



Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 239
Location: Carnation, WA

PostPosted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:43 pm    Post subject: More “Making a Monkey” updates Reply with quote

I’ve made more updates to Making a Monkey: Fibers, Epoxy, the final steps to prepare for lamination, added a new sub-section called “Builders Corner” with information on routers, bits, trimming sidewalls, press heat control, and thermocouples.

Builders Corner also includes something that I hope many others will find valuable: my construction checklist, which is a spreadsheet that we print out for each build to track our progress from beginning to end, and to make sure we don’t forget anything along the way.
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Free open source ski and snowboard CADCAM: MonkeyCAM, snoCAD-X
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doughboyshredder



Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Posts: 1346

PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You kick so much ass.

Your site is really developing in to the be all end all of educational tools for the next generation of builders. If I start to question something I find myself saying "how'd head monkey do it?". Going as far as listing part numbers and suppliers is really awesome.

Thanks!!!!!

I think I just ordered over a thousand dollars of aluminum. I didn't even ask how much it was going to be, but I got a lot of skins that I am picking up tomorrow.
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