Here I go!
I decided to roughly copy the Rossi B1 for my first ski. My final design is 114-75-104 in a 172 (146 contact length). This results in a 15.7m turn radius, which is a bit larger then my Metron B5's, but still less then my old skis.
I ended up just using SolidWorks for all my design, SnoCad just drove me crazy with its simplicity, and I wanted to print a template for everything.
Well, linking to an image on flickr is giving me a hard time, I'll try again tommorow.
So far I have two sets of cores, on set completly profiled with sidewalls. I decided to go with ash and cherry, with rock maple sidewalls. The cores are 11.5mm thick at center, wich os 20mm back. After I started cutting the glued-up blank, i discovered that the wood had bowed a little during storage, so my cores are not perfectcly symetrical; they are of by about 1/8" at the center.
I figured if you can build a core with a pallet, why not build a core with the leftovers from the jigs and tooling. So for my second pair of cores, I used some leftover maple, cherry, and 12-ply plywood. I had to piece these together a bit.
Right now I have about $30 into this little adventure, all I need to purchase is some epoxy, edges, VDS, and base material. Well, I'll add more comments when I get some pics up.
Well, Im no longer bored...
Moderators: Head Monkey, kelvin, bigKam, skidesmond, chrismp
Alright, I took the time to search about image posting, turns out i was just using the wron URL.
Here is a SolidWorks image of my ski; the inside figure is the core. Edges are also shown, but too small to show up.
Core:
Tipspacer Template (tailspacer looks about the same):
Profiling Setup:
Router Bridge:
Mold. I never intended on actually making this while at home, but I found a pile of Advantek Particle board in the corner of the garage (scrap from work). I asked my dad what it was for, he said just scrap from work, he was using it for whatever. In order to fit this in the car for the 8-hour drive from my parent's to my apartment, I had to cut the mold in two. Since this pic was taken, I have added a second layer of Masonite to the top.
Top view, with base template:
Time for the real important stuff; White Ash and Cherry cores. The ash came from trees that we lost during the Ice Storm of 1998. The cherry is what is left over when they CNC route the window frames at the yacht company that I used to/my father does work for. The left core is as glued with Gorrila Glue, the right core has been run through a thickness planer a few times to even out the bottom.
[/img]
Heres my core template clamped to the core. I painted all my plywood templates, as the scrap cherry plywood tends to have a rank smell in damp weather unless a finish is applied. I used pink primer untill I foujnd a gallon of blue paint kicking around. My first step was to cut out the core to within 1/8", then follow the template with a pattern bit in the routher to clean up the core.
Rough-cut core:
Heres a pic of the current state of my cores. The two on the left are the
ash and cherry cores, profiled, with rock maple sidewalls. The rock maple came from old beds at the municiple fire department where my father works, they were made by inmates at the old Maine State Prison in Thomaston, ME. The cores on the left, well, I was cleaning up towards the end of my vacation to Maine, and I saw all this scrap plywood lying on the floor, as well as a some leftover maple and (still) a huge pile of cherry from work. And then I thought of Project Pallet, so I figured what the heck. I ended up with 12-ply plywood, cherry and rock maple in the core. These will have cherry sidewalls.
And here is what I will use to "press" (I hope) the skis. More scrap/castaways from the yacht company. It is technically a fresh are supply, but it is made by Gast pumps. I stuck my finger over the inlet and thought I was going to loose it, and I just about blew the breaker in my house. I think once I set this up with some gauges and a vacuum cutoff switch it will make a fine vacuum pump, if not, anyone want a fresh air supply?
The only thing that is holding me back from furhter progress is cash. MLReed05 sold me enough glass for quite a few pairs, but I still need to get some edges, base material, and find a good (but cheaper) epoxy. I'm selling a bunch of car stereo stuff I no longer use on Ebay, so maybe in a week or so I can get back to working on the skis.
Here is a SolidWorks image of my ski; the inside figure is the core. Edges are also shown, but too small to show up.
Core:
Tipspacer Template (tailspacer looks about the same):
Profiling Setup:
Router Bridge:
Mold. I never intended on actually making this while at home, but I found a pile of Advantek Particle board in the corner of the garage (scrap from work). I asked my dad what it was for, he said just scrap from work, he was using it for whatever. In order to fit this in the car for the 8-hour drive from my parent's to my apartment, I had to cut the mold in two. Since this pic was taken, I have added a second layer of Masonite to the top.
Top view, with base template:
Time for the real important stuff; White Ash and Cherry cores. The ash came from trees that we lost during the Ice Storm of 1998. The cherry is what is left over when they CNC route the window frames at the yacht company that I used to/my father does work for. The left core is as glued with Gorrila Glue, the right core has been run through a thickness planer a few times to even out the bottom.
[/img]Heres my core template clamped to the core. I painted all my plywood templates, as the scrap cherry plywood tends to have a rank smell in damp weather unless a finish is applied. I used pink primer untill I foujnd a gallon of blue paint kicking around. My first step was to cut out the core to within 1/8", then follow the template with a pattern bit in the routher to clean up the core.
Rough-cut core:
Heres a pic of the current state of my cores. The two on the left are the
ash and cherry cores, profiled, with rock maple sidewalls. The rock maple came from old beds at the municiple fire department where my father works, they were made by inmates at the old Maine State Prison in Thomaston, ME. The cores on the left, well, I was cleaning up towards the end of my vacation to Maine, and I saw all this scrap plywood lying on the floor, as well as a some leftover maple and (still) a huge pile of cherry from work. And then I thought of Project Pallet, so I figured what the heck. I ended up with 12-ply plywood, cherry and rock maple in the core. These will have cherry sidewalls.
And here is what I will use to "press" (I hope) the skis. More scrap/castaways from the yacht company. It is technically a fresh are supply, but it is made by Gast pumps. I stuck my finger over the inlet and thought I was going to loose it, and I just about blew the breaker in my house. I think once I set this up with some gauges and a vacuum cutoff switch it will make a fine vacuum pump, if not, anyone want a fresh air supply?
The only thing that is holding me back from furhter progress is cash. MLReed05 sold me enough glass for quite a few pairs, but I still need to get some edges, base material, and find a good (but cheaper) epoxy. I'm selling a bunch of car stereo stuff I no longer use on Ebay, so maybe in a week or so I can get back to working on the skis.
-
Enduro_Skiin
- Posts: 17
- Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:17 pm
- Location: Maine
Nice Effort
Are you doing this work in Maine or NY? I live in Portland and would meet up if/when your in the area.
I've three pairs off my press and have some skate decks coming along and more skis for the summer.... skate decks for summer, skis for winter.
I've three pairs off my press and have some skate decks coming along and more skis for the summer.... skate decks for summer, skis for winter.
Enduro,
So far I have done all the work at my parents house in Poland. I'm out here working a 6-month co-op (I'm a mechanical engineering student), then back to classes in the winter. I've brought everything back to Rochester with me, and will hopefully finish out here. If I'm back in Maine anytime soon, I'll send you a PM. I wish I had known before.
What type of press are you using? Any pics?
So far I have done all the work at my parents house in Poland. I'm out here working a 6-month co-op (I'm a mechanical engineering student), then back to classes in the winter. I've brought everything back to Rochester with me, and will hopefully finish out here. If I'm back in Maine anytime soon, I'll send you a PM. I wish I had known before.
What type of press are you using? Any pics?
Big thanks to Mr. Fiberglass epoxy for the discount!
Even BIGGER thanks to Fiberglass Supply for the sample of System Three Silver Tip epoxy!! This stuff is clear as water.
I'm just waiting to here back about some lab space on campus, people are difficult to get in contact with over the summer.
Trying to work out some ideas for graphics in the meantime. So far I've printed on normal paper with a laser jet, no bleeding. Anyone know how the UV stability is?
I was able to feed some 3oz glass through my ink jet, I've yet to try with the laser printer.
I'm thinking that one ski might be purple or red, and the other ski might be brown. The name would be "Peanut Butter and Jelly". I was eating a sandwich when I was testing graphics ideas...
Even BIGGER thanks to Fiberglass Supply for the sample of System Three Silver Tip epoxy!! This stuff is clear as water.
I'm just waiting to here back about some lab space on campus, people are difficult to get in contact with over the summer.
Trying to work out some ideas for graphics in the meantime. So far I've printed on normal paper with a laser jet, no bleeding. Anyone know how the UV stability is?
I was able to feed some 3oz glass through my ink jet, I've yet to try with the laser printer.
I'm thinking that one ski might be purple or red, and the other ski might be brown. The name would be "Peanut Butter and Jelly". I was eating a sandwich when I was testing graphics ideas...
So I finally got fed up with the lab director on campus. He blew me off all summer, then on the first day of classes he told me that a brand new room would be finished and empty by week 3 of classes. Next week is week 7...
I don't get back here from work until after he has left his office, and he will no longer respond to e-mails, so I gave up and bagged a ski today in the living room.
I threw some plastic over the kitchen table, and went to work. I really need to by some real furniture.
I used the patio chairs (kitchen chairs) for sawhorses.
The other day, i was horrified to find that my bases had warped!!! Luckily the didn't, I had just drawn sloppy layout lines on my mold. Every lined up good with the new alignment blocks. I put down some wax on the mold so the epoxy wouldn't stick. Normally, I would buff out like 6 or 7 coats of wax on a mold, but here I don't care about the finish, I just don't want the flash to stick. More on this later.
Mmmm beer. Smokey aftertaste for just a second, I like it.
22" Hg from a fresh air supply pump that was going to be thrown out at my old job. Not bad. About every 45 minutes, I have to go by and run the pump for a second to keep this level. Since I was going to be doing this in a lab, I had just planned to run the pump continuously. Therefore, I never set up a pressure switch.
A few issues with this that I already know about:
Other then that, I think it went pretty well. As you can see, I am not using a bag connector. I had made one, and it leaked. So now I just stuff the hose through the bag, and seal it with butyl tape. Works great.
I also did not wet out the cloth more then 1/2" beyond the base. This was done mainly to not waist epoxy, but it also has an added benefit (unintentionally, but I should have thought of it). Any excess epoxy that is in the layup is drawn to the dry flash, giving me a better ratio.
I'm already thinking of a new, improved adjustable mold. I used flashing to cover this one, I really should have sprung for something thicker. If getting space on campus ever pans out, I may do it here. If not, I've got two weeks off for Christmas, and no part-time job out here, so back to Maine for some skiing (hopefully) and building.
I don't get back here from work until after he has left his office, and he will no longer respond to e-mails, so I gave up and bagged a ski today in the living room.
I threw some plastic over the kitchen table, and went to work. I really need to by some real furniture.
I used the patio chairs (kitchen chairs) for sawhorses.
The other day, i was horrified to find that my bases had warped!!! Luckily the didn't, I had just drawn sloppy layout lines on my mold. Every lined up good with the new alignment blocks. I put down some wax on the mold so the epoxy wouldn't stick. Normally, I would buff out like 6 or 7 coats of wax on a mold, but here I don't care about the finish, I just don't want the flash to stick. More on this later.
Mmmm beer. Smokey aftertaste for just a second, I like it.
22" Hg from a fresh air supply pump that was going to be thrown out at my old job. Not bad. About every 45 minutes, I have to go by and run the pump for a second to keep this level. Since I was going to be doing this in a lab, I had just planned to run the pump continuously. Therefore, I never set up a pressure switch.
A few issues with this that I already know about:
- 1. Vacuuming fiberglass off the carpet sucks.
2. I never put any release on the base. The mold has a coat of wax, so hopefully this comes off. I can't believe I overlooked that one.
3. I did not cut notches in the glass to fit around my alignment blocks. It really sucks trying to do this when the glass is wet. With crappy scissors. I want my good kevlar shears that I left in Maine...
Other then that, I think it went pretty well. As you can see, I am not using a bag connector. I had made one, and it leaked. So now I just stuff the hose through the bag, and seal it with butyl tape. Works great.
I also did not wet out the cloth more then 1/2" beyond the base. This was done mainly to not waist epoxy, but it also has an added benefit (unintentionally, but I should have thought of it). Any excess epoxy that is in the layup is drawn to the dry flash, giving me a better ratio.
I'm already thinking of a new, improved adjustable mold. I used flashing to cover this one, I really should have sprung for something thicker. If getting space on campus ever pans out, I may do it here. If not, I've got two weeks off for Christmas, and no part-time job out here, so back to Maine for some skiing (hopefully) and building.
Maybe later I will post what I used for graphics. If not, you will see it tomorrow when I open up the bag...
Right now everything is sitting under two heat lamps. I wanted to make a "tent" out of foam board (Gman?) but I had no way to get the material home in my car.
I'm kind of paranoid right now, I really hope these come out ok. I've probably spent quite a bit of money this summer...
Right now everything is sitting under two heat lamps. I wanted to make a "tent" out of foam board (Gman?) but I had no way to get the material home in my car.
I'm kind of paranoid right now, I really hope these come out ok. I've probably spent quite a bit of money this summer...
Re: My first one...
Well, I woke up at 3am to check the pump. I had only lost about 5" Hg in the three hours that I was sleeping. When I turned the pump on, it pulled the plastic loose somewhere, and I heard the air his in. A quick check of the layup, everything was rock hard. The heatlamps did the trick. So I turned everything off and went to bed.
Woke back up at 9am and started pulling things apart. To my disappointment, the topsheet has 3 wrinkles in it, from the cardboard breather. I should have used longer cardboard, as one is from the seem between two pieces. I think the other two are from folds on the cardboard. Also, there are ridges running the length of the ski, from the corrugations. These don't look horrible, but it was not expected. Next time, pink insulation board as breather, full length.
This thing was stuck to the mold. Not from the epoxy, but from the double sided tape. Of course I cut myself on the flash trying to pull things apart. Then I broke through the aluminum on the mold with a putty knife while prying.
Once I got everything apart, it didn't look too bad. I've got some undesirable spots int he base, I think for the next ski I will increase the depth and width of the groove I cut in the core for the edges. For this ski, I had everything with in a few mm's, way to tight.
Ok, here are some pics:
Ugh. These damn ridges are the only thing i don't like. I'm hoping they are mainly epoxy, then I could sand them down. At least the middle one is going to be covered by bindings.
For the graphics, I used Crafter's Image PhotoFabric. It's a silk cloth with a paper backing that you can run through the printer. It wets out clear, but it is really hard to get all the air out from under it. I can't really see where I cut out the logo, I thought that there would be an outline.
To summarize, here are the issues that I had the first time around:
Overall, I'm calling this a success. I was comparing myself to many of the other builders, but then this morning I realized that we have all been here at some point. This is a learning experience, and sometimes things go wrong, I consider myself luck that my first attempt is skiable.
Woke back up at 9am and started pulling things apart. To my disappointment, the topsheet has 3 wrinkles in it, from the cardboard breather. I should have used longer cardboard, as one is from the seem between two pieces. I think the other two are from folds on the cardboard. Also, there are ridges running the length of the ski, from the corrugations. These don't look horrible, but it was not expected. Next time, pink insulation board as breather, full length.
This thing was stuck to the mold. Not from the epoxy, but from the double sided tape. Of course I cut myself on the flash trying to pull things apart. Then I broke through the aluminum on the mold with a putty knife while prying.
Once I got everything apart, it didn't look too bad. I've got some undesirable spots int he base, I think for the next ski I will increase the depth and width of the groove I cut in the core for the edges. For this ski, I had everything with in a few mm's, way to tight.
Ok, here are some pics:
Ugh. These damn ridges are the only thing i don't like. I'm hoping they are mainly epoxy, then I could sand them down. At least the middle one is going to be covered by bindings.
For the graphics, I used Crafter's Image PhotoFabric. It's a silk cloth with a paper backing that you can run through the printer. It wets out clear, but it is really hard to get all the air out from under it. I can't really see where I cut out the logo, I thought that there would be an outline.
To summarize, here are the issues that I had the first time around:
- 1. Aluminum flashing is too thin for the mold surface. When you pry against it, it tears.
2. Fiberglass tip spacers are a PITA to line up. UHMWPE next time, then I can use my fancy templates for an exact fit.
3. Cardboard as a breather is a bad idea. At the very least, you will get grooves from the corrugations. Next time, pink foam insulation board, the full length of the ski.
4. Routed relief for the edges. I need to make this slightly oversize.
Overall, I'm calling this a success. I was comparing myself to many of the other builders, but then this morning I realized that we have all been here at some point. This is a learning experience, and sometimes things go wrong, I consider myself luck that my first attempt is skiable.
Last edited by krp8128 on Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
krp8128,
Would you please elaborate on the problem you had with the edge groove in the core? How did you size it and what size were the flanges? What exactly were the "undesirable spots" in the base?
Glad to hear you think it's skiable regardless of the issues you had. I like the ridges; it would be cool if you could figure out how to do that without the wrinkles.
Best of luck - Mark
Would you please elaborate on the problem you had with the edge groove in the core? How did you size it and what size were the flanges? What exactly were the "undesirable spots" in the base?
Glad to hear you think it's skiable regardless of the issues you had. I like the ridges; it would be cool if you could figure out how to do that without the wrinkles.
Best of luck - Mark
First off, very well done on your first ski.
I made 2 pair and a snowboard before I figured out how to vacuum press without leaving those cardboard corrugation ridges. I put a thin sheet of plastic - some old spoiled topsheets in my case, but base material, linoleum or something similar would have worked. Between the top surface of the ski and my cardboard breather.
To get rid of the ridges I was lucky, mine were almost all epoxy - a belt sander and lots of work, the finish wasn't too hot, all white and scratchy looking. This was all fixed with a coat of varnish.
Don't go to deep routing for your edges. To shallow is easier fix when tuning a ski than too deep. Working for PMGear I've seen ski ruined by routing too deep, to shallow ya just got to file more to get them flat.
As for sticking to the mold. My home builds had packing tape on the base and the mold. Much cheaper than aluminum. Yeah double sided tape was also my reason for sticking to the mold, but wiuth the packing tape it wasn't a problem to fix the mold.
I'm guessing you just made the one ski? Don't change too much in the next one. One of the toughest things is to make a pair, one ski at a time. Large manufacturers will have a room full of skis and then hand flex to match skis into pairs.
I made 2 pair and a snowboard before I figured out how to vacuum press without leaving those cardboard corrugation ridges. I put a thin sheet of plastic - some old spoiled topsheets in my case, but base material, linoleum or something similar would have worked. Between the top surface of the ski and my cardboard breather.
To get rid of the ridges I was lucky, mine were almost all epoxy - a belt sander and lots of work, the finish wasn't too hot, all white and scratchy looking. This was all fixed with a coat of varnish.
Don't go to deep routing for your edges. To shallow is easier fix when tuning a ski than too deep. Working for PMGear I've seen ski ruined by routing too deep, to shallow ya just got to file more to get them flat.
As for sticking to the mold. My home builds had packing tape on the base and the mold. Much cheaper than aluminum. Yeah double sided tape was also my reason for sticking to the mold, but wiuth the packing tape it wasn't a problem to fix the mold.
I'm guessing you just made the one ski? Don't change too much in the next one. One of the toughest things is to make a pair, one ski at a time. Large manufacturers will have a room full of skis and then hand flex to match skis into pairs.
mark,
I have the edges from the skibuilders store. The flange measures .022" tall by .217".
To route the groove for these, I just offset the base template on my core by the .022" measurement, and set the depth to match the thickness. I then used a router with a guide bushing and straight bit. This made for a very tight fit to the base, I think what happened is that with thickness of the glass, my groove was not large enough, and the base is bulged up a bit. At this point, it is hard to tell how flat the base is, as there is epoxy stick unevenly on the base. I think from now on I will make this just a bit larger, maybe .05"x.25". Someone had a measurement listed for this, I think it may have been g-man.
I have the edges from the skibuilders store. The flange measures .022" tall by .217".
To route the groove for these, I just offset the base template on my core by the .022" measurement, and set the depth to match the thickness. I then used a router with a guide bushing and straight bit. This made for a very tight fit to the base, I think what happened is that with thickness of the glass, my groove was not large enough, and the base is bulged up a bit. At this point, it is hard to tell how flat the base is, as there is epoxy stick unevenly on the base. I think from now on I will make this just a bit larger, maybe .05"x.25". Someone had a measurement listed for this, I think it may have been g-man.
Idris,
It's nice to here this issue has been seen before. I think next time I'll go with my release (painters plastic) and foam as my breather. I'm not sure if I even want to attempt removal of the longitudinal ridges, but I think i can take care of the 3 that run across the ski. I planned on overcoating with some varnish or sealer anyway, so the scratches should disappear.
I only have a few spots where the edges made the base high, which is why i think just a little deeper in my grooves will do the trick. Care to share what the PMGear ski are using, or is that a trade secret?
What is your mold made of? I've got 2 layers of 1/8" Masonite on mine, the thin aluminum was just to give me a surface to seal my bag on. I think the flashing cost $10 at home depot. I ruined it when I shoved a putty knife between the ski and mold, as the thin flashing was not glued to the mold, it picked up from the surface and the knife pierced through.
Is the packing tape enough to give an airtight seal during the bagging? Or do you wrap the entire mold in the bag?
I didn't want to spend a lot of money on tooling this time around, and then find out that I had it all wrong. I think the only expense that I have into the mold is the flashing and a sheet of Masonite, so after I press the mate to this ski, I will be incorporating my experiences into the new design. I look at this the same way as when I am building canoes; the first one took two people over 5 hours just for the layup. The next one took me an hour, working mostly alone. You learn things fast dealing with composites.
It's nice to here this issue has been seen before. I think next time I'll go with my release (painters plastic) and foam as my breather. I'm not sure if I even want to attempt removal of the longitudinal ridges, but I think i can take care of the 3 that run across the ski. I planned on overcoating with some varnish or sealer anyway, so the scratches should disappear.
I only have a few spots where the edges made the base high, which is why i think just a little deeper in my grooves will do the trick. Care to share what the PMGear ski are using, or is that a trade secret?
What is your mold made of? I've got 2 layers of 1/8" Masonite on mine, the thin aluminum was just to give me a surface to seal my bag on. I think the flashing cost $10 at home depot. I ruined it when I shoved a putty knife between the ski and mold, as the thin flashing was not glued to the mold, it picked up from the surface and the knife pierced through.
Is the packing tape enough to give an airtight seal during the bagging? Or do you wrap the entire mold in the bag?
I didn't want to spend a lot of money on tooling this time around, and then find out that I had it all wrong. I think the only expense that I have into the mold is the flashing and a sheet of Masonite, so after I press the mate to this ski, I will be incorporating my experiences into the new design. I look at this the same way as when I am building canoes; the first one took two people over 5 hours just for the layup. The next one took me an hour, working mostly alone. You learn things fast dealing with composites.
If you have only a few places where the edges made the base high it will probably be from when you glued the edges yo the base, or you have low spots in your routing. We use nothing special. but pressing at 80-90psi and 180F forces things to be flat where as vacuum bagging at room temp you have to be more accurate with your material preparation.krp8128 wrote: I only have a few spots where the edges made the base high, which is why i think just a little deeper in my grooves will do the trick. Care to share what the PMGear ski are using, or is that a trade secret?
My mold at home is 1 layer of Masonite 1/8" prebent with packing tape and a prebent ski. At work its almost 1/4 thick" Aluminum on a MDF and steel mold.krp8128 wrote: What is your mold made of? I've got 2 layers of 1/8" Masonite on mine, the thin aluminum was just to give me a surface to seal my bag on. I think the flashing cost $10 at home depot. I ruined it when I shoved a putty knife between the ski and mold, as the thin flashing was not glued to the mold, it picked up from the surface and the knife pierced through.
I have been wrapping the whole mold in a bag but sealing it with packing tape, have a look at MarinJern's thread he has a neat way of doing this.krp8128 wrote: Is the packing tape enough to give an airtight seal during the bagging? Or do you wrap the entire mold in the bag?