Love/hate relationship with Nylon
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doughboyshredder
- Posts: 1354
- Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:37 pm
I have posted the proof elsewhere on this site.
If you want the best bond it is an absolute MUST that you flame treat before layup.
I don't feel like searching for it, but the report I posted unequivocally proved that relying on factory flame treating was the worst method. The molecular change that flame treating causes wears off rather easily. One of the worst causes of this is touching untreated material (such as the bottom of the base material). In shipping the material is rolled, therefore, by the time you get it, something like half of the treatment is completely worn off.
The other huge mistake that people make is "cleaning" their material with solvent. Solvent damages the flame treatment severely.
The worst thing you can do is take factory treated material and wipe it off with solvent, and then lay it up.
If you want the best bond it is an absolute MUST that you flame treat before layup.
I don't feel like searching for it, but the report I posted unequivocally proved that relying on factory flame treating was the worst method. The molecular change that flame treating causes wears off rather easily. One of the worst causes of this is touching untreated material (such as the bottom of the base material). In shipping the material is rolled, therefore, by the time you get it, something like half of the treatment is completely worn off.
The other huge mistake that people make is "cleaning" their material with solvent. Solvent damages the flame treatment severely.
The worst thing you can do is take factory treated material and wipe it off with solvent, and then lay it up.
I've heard this before. I do all my solvent cleaning, blast everything with air, let it dry a few minutes then flame minutes before the lay-up.doughboyshredder wrote:...
The other huge mistake that people make is "cleaning" their material with solvent. Solvent damages the flame treatment severely.
The worst thing you can do is take factory treated material and wipe it off with solvent, and then lay it up.
I must admit, if I'm flaming silkscreened UHMW base (or i guess topsheet) I always ask myself what good it's really doing. I'm not sure flame treating epoxy-able ink does a damn thing to change it's surface structure, and even if it did the issue is the bond between the ink and the plastic, not the ink and the glass (which is waht the flame treating would address). The ink is the weak link, is it not?
Fklae treating nylon seems a good idea. Flame treating sidewalls is clearly a must. Tipfill? i rarely flame treat and my "testing" has shown that to be an absurdly strong bond anyways. Whatever Crown do to it, it works.
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MontuckyMadman
- Posts: 2395
- Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:41 pm
Well, I'm flame treating the inked side of the topsheet and base, not epoxy. But I suppose I'm doing it through a poor understanding of what flaming actually does, and I'm taking the chance that it might improve bonding some. It's a light pass, so i don;t see how it could do any harm.
But my question remains, flame treating topsheet only seems to do any good when it's been treated on the top side, not the underside (e.g., when its been silk screened). Aren't some production skis and boards silkscreened? If so, it would seem that they are not flame treated.
But my question remains, flame treating topsheet only seems to do any good when it's been treated on the top side, not the underside (e.g., when its been silk screened). Aren't some production skis and boards silkscreened? If so, it would seem that they are not flame treated.
If you are silkscreening your entire top/base with epoxy based ink and catylist combo, you are basically treating the material with a bonding agent, being the ink itself. Prior to screening though it cant hurt to do a couple light passes of flame, especially if you are just doing some small logos etc. I would not flame the paint afterwords. Just try and keep your greasy mits off the underside of the material while painting it. rubber gloves will help.
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MontuckyMadman
- Posts: 2395
- Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:41 pm
As I understand the flame treating of materials like plastics that are essentially inert and very difficult to penetrate or bond to you need to create an oxidation layer in order to improve the capillary action of the material which creates a bondable surface. Use the water test to see if you have changed anything. If it beads up than no bond, if it sheets and spreads out you have treated it correctly. If the material is coated with an epoxy based ink or other primed surface for bonding the flame will not do anything.
You can tell when the flame treatment wears off. Take a piece of tip spacer that is abraded and corona or flame treated on both sides from crown, do a water test, see it sheet out.
clean a small area with solvent or abrade the surface with some wet 120 grit and water test after dry, see it bead. Reflame and test again.
You will want to try and get a couple of seconds over the area in total moving at a speed of around 3 inches per second with the oxygen rich area of the flame.
You can buy dyn pens also to test this but a box of 5 is 60 bucks.
Ill buy one pen if you buy the box.
You can tell when the flame treatment wears off. Take a piece of tip spacer that is abraded and corona or flame treated on both sides from crown, do a water test, see it sheet out.
clean a small area with solvent or abrade the surface with some wet 120 grit and water test after dry, see it bead. Reflame and test again.
You will want to try and get a couple of seconds over the area in total moving at a speed of around 3 inches per second with the oxygen rich area of the flame.
You can buy dyn pens also to test this but a box of 5 is 60 bucks.
Ill buy one pen if you buy the box.
sammer wrote: I'm still a tang on top guy.
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threeninethree
- Posts: 172
- Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 8:11 pm
- Location: Massachusetts