Love/hate relationship with Nylon

[mattman]

So I recently tried out some nylon topsheet that I got from Lindsay a while back. Between being thinner, clearer, and having a protective film, I LOVED the stuff. Figured that was the end of "clear" Crown for me. However, a couple customers who ended up with some of the Crown skis and some of the nylon said that the crown held up better and that the nylon started to delam slightly. Here's the catch: these are ski-bike skis so the Crown was on a rear ski while the nylon was on a front ski...so its not exactly apples to apples...the durability differences could be a difference in use. What has been other people's experience between nylon and Crown?

[MontuckyMadman]

Did u flame treat the nylon?

[mattman]

Both the Crown and nylon were used as-is from the supplier. Isosport says the nylon is corona treated.

[team08]

Most of the thin plastics have to be corona or plasma treated because it melts under flame treatment. I have talked to the guys at crown about it and they hate having to corona treat, the bond is not as strong, and the treatment doesn't last as long either (you did say you got your Nylon a while back). We made some boards with Nylon this year, but don't really have a lot of time on them (crappy winter). So far we don't have any issues, but we also got fresh material from Vince (at Miller Studio). Here is my take on topsheet materials:

PBT: long shelf life, great bond, great graphic reproduction, SHITTY durability
Nylon: short shelf life, good bond, good graphic reproduction, decent durability
UHMW: long shelf life, great bond, can't sublimate, awesome durability

If there was an easy way to put 1-off graphics on UHMW, we would be using that ALL THE TIME. Plus, working with Crown is ten times easier than IsoSport. If we need material from Iso, we are now just ordering it through Vince.

[mattman]

Wow, that was a perfectly concise and thorough answer. I think you just sold me on staying with Crown. You said you are looking a 1-off way to do graphics on UHMW...unless I am misunderstanding something, monson offers direct printing and sublimating onto crown's galleria. I am surprised miller doesnt offer the same service (full disclosure: I have not yet ordered from either place).
http://monsonboards.com/portfolio-view/plastics

[team08]

Sublimation on UHMW looks horrible, really blurry and washed out. Many companies do it though, just look at the base of some skis/boards. It has to be backflooded as well which is another step, and another possible thing to go wrong. I don't know any specifics on what "direct printing" involves, Miller might offer it, never inquired. We do all subbing in house anyways, the turn around would be too long to outsource it. But if those guys were close, I would outsource it in a heartbeat.

[MontuckyMadman]

the galleria looks bad subbed or clear. nylon all the way. should be flamed, will not melt. will adhere better, no doubt.
Might i suggest as I always have that numerous companies are using a flow coat over these materials for added hardness. seems like must with the nylon.

[ben_mtl]

the galleria looks bad subbed or clear. nylon all the way. should be flamed, will not melt. will adhere better, no doubt.
Might i suggest as I always have that numerous companies are using a flow coat over these materials for added hardness. seems like must with the nylon.

Could you please develop on the "flow coat" thing.. I'm not sure I get it (must be because english's not my first language...)
Thanks !

[OnDeck]

... I have talked to the guys at crown about it and they hate having to corona treat, the bond is not as strong, and the treatment doesn't last as long either ...

Really? I've been thinking that Corona treatment was all-time, based on the strength of the bond i get between tipfill and topsheet (as opposed to sidewall (flame treated) and topsheet).

Does anyone else have anything to add here?

[twizzstyle]

I'll just add that the last two pairs I made I used sublimated nylon from Miller Studios, I flame treated everything just prior to layup, and I've had zero delam issues. But each pair has only seen 5-10 days on the mountain, so I can't speak to long-term durability.

[team08]

By "flow coat" I think he means lacquer coat. I am sure there is a Burton video somewhere on the web where you can see theirs, it is basically a continuous waterfall of lacquer, the boards shoots through it getting a nice even coating, and then it is set (probably through heat). I actually am not sure what topsheet material they use underneath though, because a lot of them are screen printed after pressing. This is a nice luxury of mass production because you can fix any imperfection after pressing. The lacquer coat has pros and cons. Again, another step in the process. Also, another toxic chemical to be used. It also seems to spider crack over time. However, it looks damn good on the shelf, and that really sets their boards apart from the rest of the industry.

As for corona treatment, we rented surface treaters from Tantec and found that neither the corona nor the plasma treated worked as well as good old flame treating for UHMW. I am pretty sure that Crown flame treats everything, they may corona treat really thin materials.

[OnDeck]

So, is everyone here flame treating the Crown topsheet material themselves, to be safe? I assume you need to do that prior to any silkscreening you may do, as flame treating ink seems a waste of time.

I wasn't, but I'm thinking I need to do that more.

[MontuckyMadman]

I would look at ultra hard polyurethane hybrids

[mattman]

OnDeck, thats a good point...is everyone flame treating prior to screenprinting (what if its outsourced...does miller, SM, Coda, etc flame treat prior)? I personally have never been totally sold on hand-flame treating prior to the layup. Maybe some people have the technique perfected enough to do more good than bad (to crown's pretreatment), but I am skeptical that often times its a case of confirmation bias. Also, this is something I have never seen in a production video.

[doughboyshredder]

If you're not flame treating prior to layup, you're not doing it right.