First ski design

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Eirik Hanes
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First ski design

Post by Eirik Hanes »

It's soon time to press our first pair of skis, and i'd just like some feed back on our core thickness design, see picture. The dimetions are to the left and the stiffness (compared to rosigol squad 184 07'), sidecut and coreprofile is ploted to the left.
Image

We're using a two layers of hybrid fabric o each side DB320 125g glass ad 25 g carbon at +-30 degrees.

The toughts are, soft and tapered tips should give good float i pow, stiff mid ski should give a rigid feel.

probably pressing somethig like this tomorrow.
twizzstyle
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Post by twizzstyle »

8mm seems really thin for a ski core? But maybe that fiberglass/carbon will make up for that.
Eirik Hanes
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Post by Eirik Hanes »

i Think i have to change my sfi coversion a bit. comming up with a new desing soon. remember, the skis are really wide :D (i know its bh^3/12) but any way.
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endre
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Post by endre »

a very stiff mid ski is around 13mm, a very soft mid ski core is around 10mm. a soft tip is 2mm, a stiff tip core is 3mm. and then you have all the numbers in between..
Eirik Hanes
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Post by Eirik Hanes »

okey, that seems to fit with what i think as well. but i struggled to get the numbers in my spread sheet to match up. i tried to convert some SFI (edit: i mean the N/mm numer read of the graphs at www.endrehals.no) numbers for the ski i currently use by using this formula:

So for a cantilever beam we have that:

F - Force
y - deflection
0<x<L
y [@x] = (Fx*x^2)*(x-3L)/(6EI) [eq. 1]

this means that:

EI = (F*x^2)*(x-3L)/(6y) [eq. 2]

for Endre's Sfi measurements x = 100, L = 120, F=249 N

So for example [ex.1] 500 N/mm really means 500 N [@x=120]/mm[@x=100]

to be able to convert to EI we need to have 500N[@x=100]/mm[@x=100]
so that we can take 1/( (X N/mm) /249 N) -> mm

to find X we have to find what force F (large) @ x = 100 gives the same deflection as a known force f(smal) @ x = 120, there will be a fixed ratio between these forces. which we can find:

100mm = 5/6 L, 120 = L
we have
y[@ 5/6 L] = -F((5/6)L)^3/12
and
y[@ 5/6 L] = f*((5/6)L)^2*((5/6)L-3L)

if we solve this for F/f -> 1.3

so back to ex.1 this means that y = (249N/1.3)/(500 N/mm), it may seem weird to divide by 1.3, but think like this, the beam would be stiffer if it gave the same deflection with a force @ x = 100 as @ x =120.

Back to eq. 2 it simplyfies to:

EI = (F*x^2)*(x-3L)/(6y)

y = (F/1.3)/( X N/mm), X = ski stiffness

EI = (x^2)*(x-3L)/ ( (1/1.3)/X )

What do you guys think, does this make sense?

Working the numbers, this seems to fit better with my intuition. So now it's just to make a new core profile design.
Last edited by Eirik Hanes on Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Eirik Hanes
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Post by Eirik Hanes »

so new design

Length thiknes Width
x y z
tip 0 2 10
tip 140 2 140
rokker 260 3,6 156
mid ski 1200 9,8 124
r. rokker 150 2,2 134
r tip 100 2 130
r tip 1,8 100
Total L. 1850

these points are made to make an approximate cubic spline(s) of the sidecut and core profile, so not that accurate. I'll make a 3d model and import the accurate cordiates to my "final design sheet". And yeah, my sheet seems to under predict stiffness with about 10% compared to what i get in my tests, don't know whats the error sources, probably a combo. The sheet does not account for shear deformation or poisons ratio.

new design blue compared to average 180 ski.
Image

what do you guys think, maybe a bit stiff for a powder ski? or not?
Eirik Hanes
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Post by Eirik Hanes »

This ski has a slight rokker 19 mm total in the mold. does any one have an idea about how the rokker of the final ski will turn out compared to this?
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endre
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Post by endre »

You've SFI wrong. SFI is a relative scale i have constructed (for Fri Flyt) to compare skis from all brands, it is based on a formula but it is a bit to complex to be written here. (it relates to average values from about 300 pairs of freeride skis from most brands)

SFI (ski flex index) is like this: five numbers (tail)-(back ski)-(mid ski)-(front ski)-(front tip)
average stiffness for each part of the ski is 5. (longer skis have to be stiffer, so the SFI also relates to the length.)

A ski with SFI 55555 is an average stiff ski relative to length and an average stiffness from an average selection of skis the 2007-2009 seasons.

A ski with SFI 35753 has soft tips and stiff mid, a ski with 78543 has a stiff tail- and back and a soft tip



The main objective of the SFI is to make it possible to communicate flex cross brands, brains and norms. SFI is as usefull for eniginerds as skiers, since the main idea of the stiffness/flex profile can be communicated in stead of the actual n/mm in numbers over a certain segment. (which hardly means anything to the normal person, and nothing cross brands and ski lengths)
Last edited by endre on Tue Dec 14, 2010 4:52 am, edited 3 times in total.
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endre
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Post by endre »

so from your thickness values your ski will be something like: SFI (back to front): 21323

in other words very, very very record holding soft.

try (back to front) : 2,5mm- 8,5mm- 12,5mm- 8mm- 2mm.

this will make a 56655-ish ski
Last edited by endre on Tue Dec 14, 2010 4:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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endre
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Post by endre »

i'm talking mainly fibreglass, but some carbon diagonls won't change much.
Eirik Hanes
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Post by Eirik Hanes »

yeah, i dont mean the SFI number [1-10] but the values read of the graph on www.endrehals.no which is in N/mm. ranging from aprox 50 -1000 N/mm. This is the direct number you calculated based on 249 N / [measured deflection in mm] right?
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endre
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Post by endre »

that's right. those pdf's have not been updated in a couple of years though.
Eirik Hanes
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Post by Eirik Hanes »

True, but then at least i have a reference, and i think my "translation" is correct then. I have tested the laminate and core together in a force/deflection machine so hopefully the ski should come out ok. machined the first core today, ended up with 11.5 mm at the midle (max we could get out of our cores) and then kind of a quadratic spline from that and out to the tip an tail spacers which are 2 mm. I'll post the profile and some pictures later.

Thanks for your help.
Eirik Hanes
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Post by Eirik Hanes »

according to my calculations, this 640 g/m2 should give the same longitudal stiffness as a 750 g/m2 triax glas. And better torsional stiffnes. It's gonna be exciting to see how it works out.
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