Hi,
Im looking at doing some screen printing on the underside of my top sheet and was wondering if there were any specific inks i should use that are better or do not affect the bonding with the resins and top sheet.
I hope you guys can help.
Thanks
Screen Printing
Moderators: Head Monkey, kelvin, bigKam, skidesmond, chrismp
-
catalystsnowboards
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:02 pm
OK I'm not gonna create another post about screen printing, might as well keep all the info in the same place... so here I go ! (if this post need to be moved to another section let me know...)
I'm giving screen printing (for topsheets) a 2nd try right now.
I'm using the Nazdar ADE serie epoxy ink + snowboard catalyst, pretty common ink to use..
For reference I gave screen printing a try about 4 year ago because my workshop landlord was screenprinting t-shirts.. he helped a lot ! Back then I was using the old duraclear topsheet from Crown Plastics (the thick one). Keep aside the difficulty to learn screen printing using epoxy ink on a 6ft long screen and using a 14in wide squeegee, this attempt was almost a failure and this way of dealing with the graphics was rejected because this supposedly clear topsheet material was not. Basically if you applied pure black ink, once the topsheet is laminated on a pair of skis it ends up more dark blue than black (I already mentioned that in other topics).
The other material available in small quantities for screenprinting back then was the Isosport clear topsheet, which is a great material.. but very pricey ! so it's a no go for me.
In the last few years Crown Plastics started selling a new product, the Duravision 5050, it's kinda cheap, I don't expect it to be as durable as the isosport clear nylon, but it's way thinner than the previous Cown Plastics topsheet and it's announced as "clear". I'm giving it a try !
I had a new screen made to update my graphics, bought some new squeegees, got some ink samples, rebuilt my old vacuum table... here I go !
As I said first, screen printing is something 90% new for me. I understand the way it works and I made lots of research regarding how I'm supposed to work... but I know there is a significant learning curve before you can print something really well, especially considering the dimensions of the materials we're working with...
Yesterday was my first try : I took 3 pieces of Duravision (I was feeling confident) and mixed enough ink for 3 topsheets, here's how it ended up :
- I messed up with the ink viscosity, it was ways too thick so basically it was a hassle to flood the screen.. meaning when the time comes to apply pressure on the squeegee to print, some areas are OK, but some are really missing some ink ! when I saw that I tried to apply a 2nd coat... WRONG ! messed up again with such a thick ink so basically the 2nd print is slight off compared to the 1st one... + there is still some ink missing in some spots !
I had a lot of ink ready, I thought the 2nd topsheet could not be worse.. it ended up the same... and so did the 3rd ! I'm gonna be able to use them all but it's definitely far from what I call "good quality topsheets".
On a positive note the topsheet material looks OK, my first coat was with white ink, it looks like a very nice real white through the topsheet material. Tomorrow I'll try the black ink : with the screen (I have to improve how I use the squeegee) and also on the topsheets I already printed white, but on those ones I'll just apply the ink with a paint brush since it's "only" the black background. So hopefully tomorrow night I'll know if the material is really clear !
Another problem I had to deal with (and I'm gonna have to deal with it again tomorrow) is the vacuum table that holds the topsheet material.
The topsheet comes in rolls, when you lay it flat it's not actually flat it's wavy so it's a real PITA to position it on the vacuum table + the suction is bad so it doesn't hold well. I'm gonna have to find a good idea for that because the real problem is that while you're switching the "just printed" material to a new piece of topsheet and you're messing up trying to put the material at the right place and be sure the vacuum holds it kinda tight, the ink on the screen slightly cures, gets thicker, thus making the next print a hassle ! Next time, as soon as I receive a roll of topsheet material I'll cut it in 2 meter sections and store it perfectly flat !
Some pics from yesterday for good measure :
Ben
I'm giving screen printing (for topsheets) a 2nd try right now.
I'm using the Nazdar ADE serie epoxy ink + snowboard catalyst, pretty common ink to use..
For reference I gave screen printing a try about 4 year ago because my workshop landlord was screenprinting t-shirts.. he helped a lot ! Back then I was using the old duraclear topsheet from Crown Plastics (the thick one). Keep aside the difficulty to learn screen printing using epoxy ink on a 6ft long screen and using a 14in wide squeegee, this attempt was almost a failure and this way of dealing with the graphics was rejected because this supposedly clear topsheet material was not. Basically if you applied pure black ink, once the topsheet is laminated on a pair of skis it ends up more dark blue than black (I already mentioned that in other topics).
The other material available in small quantities for screenprinting back then was the Isosport clear topsheet, which is a great material.. but very pricey ! so it's a no go for me.
In the last few years Crown Plastics started selling a new product, the Duravision 5050, it's kinda cheap, I don't expect it to be as durable as the isosport clear nylon, but it's way thinner than the previous Cown Plastics topsheet and it's announced as "clear". I'm giving it a try !
I had a new screen made to update my graphics, bought some new squeegees, got some ink samples, rebuilt my old vacuum table... here I go !
As I said first, screen printing is something 90% new for me. I understand the way it works and I made lots of research regarding how I'm supposed to work... but I know there is a significant learning curve before you can print something really well, especially considering the dimensions of the materials we're working with...
Yesterday was my first try : I took 3 pieces of Duravision (I was feeling confident) and mixed enough ink for 3 topsheets, here's how it ended up :
- I messed up with the ink viscosity, it was ways too thick so basically it was a hassle to flood the screen.. meaning when the time comes to apply pressure on the squeegee to print, some areas are OK, but some are really missing some ink ! when I saw that I tried to apply a 2nd coat... WRONG ! messed up again with such a thick ink so basically the 2nd print is slight off compared to the 1st one... + there is still some ink missing in some spots !
I had a lot of ink ready, I thought the 2nd topsheet could not be worse.. it ended up the same... and so did the 3rd ! I'm gonna be able to use them all but it's definitely far from what I call "good quality topsheets".
On a positive note the topsheet material looks OK, my first coat was with white ink, it looks like a very nice real white through the topsheet material. Tomorrow I'll try the black ink : with the screen (I have to improve how I use the squeegee) and also on the topsheets I already printed white, but on those ones I'll just apply the ink with a paint brush since it's "only" the black background. So hopefully tomorrow night I'll know if the material is really clear !
Another problem I had to deal with (and I'm gonna have to deal with it again tomorrow) is the vacuum table that holds the topsheet material.
The topsheet comes in rolls, when you lay it flat it's not actually flat it's wavy so it's a real PITA to position it on the vacuum table + the suction is bad so it doesn't hold well. I'm gonna have to find a good idea for that because the real problem is that while you're switching the "just printed" material to a new piece of topsheet and you're messing up trying to put the material at the right place and be sure the vacuum holds it kinda tight, the ink on the screen slightly cures, gets thicker, thus making the next print a hassle ! Next time, as soon as I receive a roll of topsheet material I'll cut it in 2 meter sections and store it perfectly flat !
Some pics from yesterday for good measure :
Ben
A bad day skiing is always better than a good one at work...
-
MontuckyMadman
- Posts: 2395
- Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:41 pm
I agree it looks good.
Any halos/misprints is just what designers call a "distressed" look
i think your idea of 2m lengths pressing flat under their own weight is a good one. I remember an old ON3P photo of a stack of printed topsheets and they all looked really flat.
All my stuff gets stored in rolls and it is hard to get it all flat to hold down on a vacuum table. By the time a topsheet ships to Australia from Miller it has been crammed in a cardboard box for 8 days or more and always retains some "memory" of this.
Any halos/misprints is just what designers call a "distressed" look
i think your idea of 2m lengths pressing flat under their own weight is a good one. I remember an old ON3P photo of a stack of printed topsheets and they all looked really flat.
All my stuff gets stored in rolls and it is hard to get it all flat to hold down on a vacuum table. By the time a topsheet ships to Australia from Miller it has been crammed in a cardboard box for 8 days or more and always retains some "memory" of this.
Don't wait up, I'm off to kill Summer....
MM -» Yes vacuum is mandatory, or at least I can't think of any other way (except double sided tape) to hold the topsheet material down on the table. You don't want it to stick to the screen and be lifted with it when you want to change the topsheet... it would be a mess (I tried actually...)
he way I've done it this morning was I put the topsheet on the table, put an MDF plank on top of it to push it flat, start the vacuum ant put some tape all around the topsheet, then remove the MDF, lower the screen and start printing. It works but it takes too much time.
Falls -» If you could have a closer look at what I've done you'd think I'm the master of "distressed look"
Yesterday after I wrote the post I went back to the shop and printed a few text images with more liquid ink.. actually it was too liquid -» too much ink goes thru the screen -» as it's too liquid it spreads on the topsheet after it's printed -» blurry / looks more like an ink spot that real text...
Oh well.. that how you learn I guess
So, today was my black printing. It went better than the days before, the ink had a better viscosity (probably would need it slightly more liquid than what I did). The prints were OK, still a few areas with not enough ink being printed but it's not too bad.
I managed to hold the topsheet material in a good way... the process is too slow to change the topsheet your printing on but at least it was working ! But I definitely have to work on that too !
With an epoxy ink, even with a pot life a 6 hours the viscosity is changing all the time, you have to add some retarder (used to lower the viscosity) pretty often... So taking too much time to change the material you're printing on can mean the ink which is still on the mesh is getting harder and harder to work with... thus the areas missing some ink (I admit it's not the only reason, not enough skills doesn't help !)
I'm definitely looking into making a one-arm-bandit, it will make the ink spreading/printing much easier and much consistant.
http://paul.cretin.net/onearm.html
Some pics :
Black printing, you can see there are still some areas with not enough ink...
Black background on white prints
I don't know if it's visible on my pics but the black is actually pretty black (not perfect, but not bad). As soon as it's dry I'll clean the topsheets and will take side-by-side pictures with an old ski printed black with the old thick Crown Plastics topsheet material.
he way I've done it this morning was I put the topsheet on the table, put an MDF plank on top of it to push it flat, start the vacuum ant put some tape all around the topsheet, then remove the MDF, lower the screen and start printing. It works but it takes too much time.
Falls -» If you could have a closer look at what I've done you'd think I'm the master of "distressed look"
Yesterday after I wrote the post I went back to the shop and printed a few text images with more liquid ink.. actually it was too liquid -» too much ink goes thru the screen -» as it's too liquid it spreads on the topsheet after it's printed -» blurry / looks more like an ink spot that real text...
Oh well.. that how you learn I guess
So, today was my black printing. It went better than the days before, the ink had a better viscosity (probably would need it slightly more liquid than what I did). The prints were OK, still a few areas with not enough ink being printed but it's not too bad.
I managed to hold the topsheet material in a good way... the process is too slow to change the topsheet your printing on but at least it was working ! But I definitely have to work on that too !
With an epoxy ink, even with a pot life a 6 hours the viscosity is changing all the time, you have to add some retarder (used to lower the viscosity) pretty often... So taking too much time to change the material you're printing on can mean the ink which is still on the mesh is getting harder and harder to work with... thus the areas missing some ink (I admit it's not the only reason, not enough skills doesn't help !)
I'm definitely looking into making a one-arm-bandit, it will make the ink spreading/printing much easier and much consistant.
http://paul.cretin.net/onearm.html
Some pics :
Black printing, you can see there are still some areas with not enough ink...
Black background on white prints
I don't know if it's visible on my pics but the black is actually pretty black (not perfect, but not bad). As soon as it's dry I'll clean the topsheets and will take side-by-side pictures with an old ski printed black with the old thick Crown Plastics topsheet material.
A bad day skiing is always better than a good one at work...
Here are the pics with the colors through the topsheet material. To summerize shortly, the new "Duravision 5050" is absolutely not more "clear" than the older Crown Plastics Durasurf, the only difference is it's thinner, which is already a good point.. but selling it as a clear topsheet material is a lie !
***NOTE FROM 1 DAY LATER : THE COLOR ISSUE DOESN'T COME FROM THE TOPSHEET MATERIAL, I WAS USING THE WRONG TOPSHEET MATERIAL ! WILL TRY THE DURAVISION 5050 IN EARLY JANUARY 2015, KEEP POSTED !***
Here are some proofs, right to left on the first picture:
- the pure black is the underside of the topsheet so you can see the real color the ink provides
- the uncut dark-blue topsheet is Duravision 5050 using the same black ink (but viewed from the topside) ***WRONG, I WAS NOT USING DURAVISION 5050***
- and the dark-blue ski is an older ski from my 1st screen printing attempt a few years ago, using the old Crown Durasurf topsheet. This pair of ski is actually not using black screenprinting ink, it's "just" a black pigment in the epoxy resin (that's why you can see the fiberglass texture in the 2nd picture), you'll have to believe me when I say this is the exact same color as one with black screenprinting ink and no pigment in the resin...
A bit disappointed not to achieve a real black with this product... advantages though are it's pretty cheap even with a really small order and not that thick...
Duravision 5050 : 5$/meter (10 meters order, direct from Crown Plastics, free shipping)
Isosport clear nylon (really clear as far as I know) : 18$/meter (10 meters order, from Miller Studio, + shipping cost)
Any other material available in North America ? I'm definitely not ready to buy the Isosport product at that price... I might stick with the Duravision for now, even if it's not perfect and probably less resistant than the Isosport stuff...
***NOTE FROM 1 DAY LATER : THE COLOR ISSUE DOESN'T COME FROM THE TOPSHEET MATERIAL, I WAS USING THE WRONG TOPSHEET MATERIAL ! WILL TRY THE DURAVISION 5050 IN EARLY JANUARY 2015, KEEP POSTED !***
Here are some proofs, right to left on the first picture:
- the pure black is the underside of the topsheet so you can see the real color the ink provides
- the uncut dark-blue topsheet is Duravision 5050 using the same black ink (but viewed from the topside) ***WRONG, I WAS NOT USING DURAVISION 5050***
- and the dark-blue ski is an older ski from my 1st screen printing attempt a few years ago, using the old Crown Durasurf topsheet. This pair of ski is actually not using black screenprinting ink, it's "just" a black pigment in the epoxy resin (that's why you can see the fiberglass texture in the 2nd picture), you'll have to believe me when I say this is the exact same color as one with black screenprinting ink and no pigment in the resin...
A bit disappointed not to achieve a real black with this product... advantages though are it's pretty cheap even with a really small order and not that thick...
Duravision 5050 : 5$/meter (10 meters order, direct from Crown Plastics, free shipping)
Isosport clear nylon (really clear as far as I know) : 18$/meter (10 meters order, from Miller Studio, + shipping cost)
Any other material available in North America ? I'm definitely not ready to buy the Isosport product at that price... I might stick with the Duravision for now, even if it's not perfect and probably less resistant than the Isosport stuff...
Last edited by ben_mtl on Wed Dec 31, 2014 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A bad day skiing is always better than a good one at work...
-
MontuckyMadman
- Posts: 2395
- Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:41 pm
I layed up a sample of the 50/50 when it was released and it was iust as clearl as the iso 8210. It was extreamly clear, like water clear. Very very very clear.
Not really sure what the issue is you have but the 50/50 was less than half as durable in chipping and scratching as the iso nylon.
You could perhaps procure some socrep clear material but it is about the same as the 50/50.
Did you peel the protective ply off?
Not really sure what the issue is you have but the 50/50 was less than half as durable in chipping and scratching as the iso nylon.
You could perhaps procure some socrep clear material but it is about the same as the 50/50.
Did you peel the protective ply off?
There is no protective film on my 5050 (or if there is it sticks really well and is almost invisible !).. but you asking me that makes me want to double check if it's really some 5050 I got (bought it direct from Crown though.. I don't think they have a lot of different topsheets this thickness)... and also make sure there is no protective film...
Note that only the 100% black ink is an issue so far. The white ink I tested shows up perfectly white and honestly if I was to use this material clear (with no ink) I would expect to see the wood core very well ! (but I would also expect to see any carbon in a dark-blue color..)
What colors did you apply when you tried the product ?
I just exchanged an email with Lindsay at SnowBoardMaterials to know what topsheet materials they have. Of course they have Isosport 8210 but it's ways too expensive. They also have something they call "UltraClear" something, it's half the Isosport price (twice the 5050's one...) and they said it was the most clear material available, period (better than 8210 according to them). Of course I don't expect it to be as durable as the Isosport stuff. They didn't say it but I'm pretty sure it's some Socrep topsheet. I'm really thinking about ordering some but the shipping charge is pretty expensive.. that would make an expensive test ! I have to think about it...
Note that only the 100% black ink is an issue so far. The white ink I tested shows up perfectly white and honestly if I was to use this material clear (with no ink) I would expect to see the wood core very well ! (but I would also expect to see any carbon in a dark-blue color..)
What colors did you apply when you tried the product ?
I just exchanged an email with Lindsay at SnowBoardMaterials to know what topsheet materials they have. Of course they have Isosport 8210 but it's ways too expensive. They also have something they call "UltraClear" something, it's half the Isosport price (twice the 5050's one...) and they said it was the most clear material available, period (better than 8210 according to them). Of course I don't expect it to be as durable as the Isosport stuff. They didn't say it but I'm pretty sure it's some Socrep topsheet. I'm really thinking about ordering some but the shipping charge is pretty expensive.. that would make an expensive test ! I have to think about it...
A bad day skiing is always better than a good one at work...
OK, now is the funny part, the one where everyone is laughing pretty badly !
Just back from the shop to check my stuff... guess what ? In the last days I've not been printing on the 5050 but on the leftovers of the Crown Durasurf I have from 3 years ago (I was wondering why I had only 5 pairs of skis worth of material considering I was pretty sure I bought 25 meters....)
OK 2014 is almost over, let's forget about that tomorrow... please !
On a more serious note, I feel ashamed but it's the kind of things I was expecting to happen.. I'm just back from a serious brain surgery (3 month ago) and it's a real challenge to be back into my shop to try build some skis (for me of course) it's like I forgot almost everything, it's no joke when the surgeon tells you you'll only be back to work 6 month to 1 year after the surgery !
Happy new year guys !
Just back from the shop to check my stuff... guess what ? In the last days I've not been printing on the 5050 but on the leftovers of the Crown Durasurf I have from 3 years ago (I was wondering why I had only 5 pairs of skis worth of material considering I was pretty sure I bought 25 meters....)
OK 2014 is almost over, let's forget about that tomorrow... please !
On a more serious note, I feel ashamed but it's the kind of things I was expecting to happen.. I'm just back from a serious brain surgery (3 month ago) and it's a real challenge to be back into my shop to try build some skis (for me of course) it's like I forgot almost everything, it's no joke when the surgeon tells you you'll only be back to work 6 month to 1 year after the surgery !
Happy new year guys !
A bad day skiing is always better than a good one at work...