Epoxy, Reccomendations?

For discussions related to the type of materials to build skis/snowboards and where to get them.

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mikefuller2
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2 epoxy supplier

Post by mikefuller2 »

I have worked with 2 other suppliers and have had a lot of great products

1. Smooth-On has a new line called Epoxamite and it is similiar to West System but it cost less and is easier to use. You can get it from Smooth-On

2. Cass polymers makes a nice system called Probuild and it is really a nice system.

Both companies have been around for over 30 years and they sale it in quarts, gallons. 5-gallons and drums

Mike :D
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MontuckyMadman
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Post by MontuckyMadman »

^^ i dont know if these are in any way formulated for compression molding at the pressures we use. i would be skeptical about this until real tests.

Maybe for atmospheric vacuum molding.
sammer wrote: I'm still a tang on top guy.
Richuk
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Post by Richuk »

I thought this might be interesting to someone, - tooling temps are between 60 - 150 degrees. Variety of products and data.

http://www.huntsman.com/advanced_materi ... URE_SG.pdf
mathew1
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Post by mathew1 »

Absolutely QCM!
Richuk
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Post by Richuk »

LMAO - I hope the link is still helpful to those who live outside the world called USA.
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SHIF
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Resin Research

Post by SHIF »

This review is purely qualitative…

So much effort goes into preparing everything for a ski lay-up; I’d hate to scrap it all due to an inferior epoxy system. Since my supply of QCM epoxy has crystallized in the container (again) and it’s more difficult to acquire than when QCM actually sold it, I decided to try something else. I selected Resin Research epoxy for my latest ski build, and I’m very pleased with the results…so far.

My entire ski building history is based on QCM 0043 resin and 408 curing agent, and always using a heated ski press. I like the Resin Research Composites Pro System; I think it’s more appropriate for ski manufacture than their Project 21 System, which is quite popular for surfboard manufacture. Both systems are high modulus epoxies but the Comp Pro product specifically references a heated cure schedule, so methinks it’s gotta be better. I purchased 2070 resin and 3100S hardener.

Check it out here:
http://www.resinresearch.net/index.html

Buying this stuff is super simple; just follow the instructions on their web site. The prices shown include shipping and there is no tax. And there is no Haz Mat transportation fees either…hurray. The stuff arrived in two days.

Image

The immediate difference between RR resin and QCM epoxy is the viscosity. RR resin is very liquid while the QCM is like stiff molasses. Both companies’ curing agents are low viscosity and can be dispensed using a disposable hand pump.

The QCM mix ratio is 4:1 by weight. The RR mix ratio is 100:30 by weight or 3:1 by volume. I’m used to weighing out several paper cups of resin then adding single pump shots of curing agent to make mini batches of epoxy on demand during the ski lay-up. I used the same technique with the Resin Research epoxy although it would be easier to simply use two disposable hand pumps and skip the gram scale altogether. By the way, QCM curing agent and RR hardener have exactly the same density; 26 grams per pump shot.

The RR hardener does not stink much or create visible vapors when opened…hurray again. Good eye protection is still recommended when working with this stuff.

Another noticeable difference between these epoxy systems is color. The QCM is amber colored due to the 408 curing agent. This definitely affects the graphic image on the finished ski when using a clear topsheet over something. The RR epoxy is water clear.

Once mixed, RR epoxy has lower viscosity than mixed QCM epoxy and therefore tends to wet-out the fabric layers a little quicker. Some ski builders pre-heat their QCM resin to achieve a lower viscosity, but I have never tried that.

This Resin Research epoxy has a pot life listed as 50 minutes, and that is confirmed based on left over epoxy after building a ski. The suggested curing schedule is published on their web site. My times and temps were generally based on those guidelines. It takes me thirty minutes to assemble a ski, from first mini batch mix until it’s in the press and under pressure. Once in the press, I initial cure the ski at 115 degrees F for four hours, then post cure at 170 degrees F for six more hours. After this, I turn off the heat and allow the press to cool over night while under pressure.

The hardened ski sandwich “feels” the same as with QCM when pulling it off the press form and trimming off the flash. And as with QCM, the ski has some out-gassing and minor odor for a couple days as it continues to cure on its own. After a week, it seems fully cured and “rings” when tapped with your knuckles.

How well does it work?
It works perfectly well, every bit as good as QCM during the ski building and finishing process. We’ll soon learn how well it holds up in sub-freezing conditions and under the abuse of skiing.

Cheers,
-S
skidesmond
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Post by skidesmond »

Great info Shif! Definitively let us know how it holds up on the slopes. No HAZ MAT charge?! Wow that is a significant cost with QCM. I'll have to check out the site. My last shipping charge from QCM was $44 for 1 gal resin 1 qt hardener
cliffhucker
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Post by cliffhucker »

I'm new here, wish I had more to post than a question, we're making our first batch of skis, we have enough $$$$ invested in our setup that we'd really like the best quality possible. That said, westsystems epoxy is priced pretty steep. I can't seem to find QCM epoxy anywhere either, (out of buissness?) Right now I'm looking at entropy resins and resin research. I've never been much of an eco nut, are these comparable to westsystems epoxy? I'd really like to use the highest quality I can. We are pressing at 100 psi at a temperature of 180 degrees. Thanks
cliffhucker
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Post by cliffhucker »

I'm new here, wish I had more to post than a question, we're making our first batch of skis, we have enough $$$$ invested in our setup that we'd really like the best quality possible. That said, westsystems epoxy is priced pretty steep. I can't seem to find QCM epoxy anywhere either, (out of buissness?) Right now I'm looking at entropy resins and resin research. I've never been much of an eco nut, are these comparable to westsystems epoxy? I'd really like to use the highest quality I can. We are pressing at 100 psi at a temperature of 180 degrees. Thanks
telehead
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Post by telehead »

QCM has sold there formula to Forest Paints, Oregon. The # is 541-868-1222, the guy I talk to is Greg. The part #'s have not changed. I use 049 Resin, and 408 Hardener. I think it is a great product. Never a problem, good luck....
Sherpa Burns
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Post by Sherpa Burns »

I'll 2nd the QCM, now Forrest epoxies. They are all I've ever used and never had an issue from day one. I use the 043 resin and 032 hardener. I'd advise against the 032 hardener from the start though. The working window is something like 20-25 minutes and if you are not on your game, you might screw it up. I usually have the layup process and skis in the press in about 18 minutes, but in the beginning, it was closer to 30 minutes.

I would like to try the Entropy resins. People seem to give mostly positive feedback and anything I can do to lessen my impact seems like a good thing to do.

Also, why 100psi? You are likely to squeeze out too much resin for substantial strength and you'll end up with some sticks that will be brittle. Not what you want if your hucking or heavy or like going 60mph. Back it off to 55psi and your results will be fine. 100 psi will really put too much strain on your hoses and even your press depending on its build quality and materials.
fpcguru
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Post by fpcguru »

telehead wrote:QCM has sold there formula to Forest Paints, Oregon. The # is 541-868-1222, the guy I talk to is Greg. The part #'s have not changed. I use 049 Resin, and 408 Hardener. I think it is a great product. Never a problem, good luck....
Thanks for forwarding on the QCM info! We here at Forrest Paint are doing the best we can to continue on with the quality epoxy legacy. Though we are new to this particular industry, we have years of experience in coatings and service and are spending all the time we can learning the products as well as the technical side.

New contact info is Brenda at (541)868-1368 Direct Line. She will be happy to help in any way to get y'all the product you need in a timely manner.

We are also very interested in any suggestions for improvements.
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Dr. Delam
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Post by Dr. Delam »

Thanks guru! I haven't run out of my QCM supply but I will soon and don't want to change as I've had nothing but success with it.
Bloefeld
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Huntsman

Post by Bloefeld »

Brazen wrote:Has anyone here tried the araldite by huntsman? I heard this stuff was THE shit...can't remember who was using it.

http://www.huntsman.com/advanced_materi ... ageID=5873
I am a composite and resin expert. I have reviewed this thread and have some recommendations and suggestions.

The epoxies recommended are all basically the same. They are Bis A epoxies with the primary differences being the curative formulation and some toughening additives. They are OK to work with, but both way more money than they are worth and require a lot more control over post-cure heat.

It seems that there is confusion between cure to handling and post-cure heat. Cure to handling can be shortened by half for every 10 Degree F increase in temperature. That is the sole advantage of adding heat while you cure your skis.

To achieve full cure and maximum properties epoxies need a post-cure heat. This is not the same as adding more heat while the ski is setting up. It is in this phase of production that the epoxy completely cures and it is important and can be fairly complicated.

I believe that a better solution is to use a Bis A epoxy/vinyl-ester hybrid epoxy system. While they have some poly-styrene in them, the smell is a small price to pay for the increased performance.

I am not certain who now makes this product, but I believe it can still be had under a different name from Ashland. I just always ask for 8084 and they tell me the latest name for it. Here is a site with its technical properties. http://www.ashland.com/Ashland/Static/D ... 208084.pdf

It is easy to tune the pot-life and a bunch of other properties too. It has the advantage in that most fiberglass and carbon fiber is not available with epoxy sizing, whereas almost all are highly compatible with 8084. This results in a much higher resin to glass bond.

This site http://www.huntsman.com/performance_pro ... amines.pdf

Is an excellent source to find out how different curatives and additives and gives you information on the resultant properties of different suggested formulations using Bisphenol A or F epoxy systems. I have used hundreds of thousands of pounds of these formulations and they always work beyond my expectations.

Ardalite, is a brand name of various Bis A and F epoxies with different properties. They are very high quality products and David Alexander at Huntsman is a great source of advice in putting together great combinations of resins and curatives.

I hope this helps some.

Cheers,

Bloefeld
OAC
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Post by OAC »

Interesting...
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