Industry Directions in SKi Design

[G-man]

Many of you have probably already seen these interviews with ski design gurus from K2, G3, Karhu, and Black Diamond, but for those who haven't, here's a link:
http://www.telemarktips.com/Interview14shows07.html

It's interesting to me to hear that most of the big production companies are moving toward designs that are more focused on smooth, round longitudinal flexes (as opposed to softer tips, stiffer tails, and other flex variations). Their current designs seem to be more focused in the direction of an overall softer longitudinal flex with more emphasis on torsional stiffness. Also, they're coming out with a lot more skis that are constructed via sandwich method (smooth, round flex?) and moving away from harder wood and non-wood core materials to softer woods that offer improved damping.

I've often suspected that designers from the big companies might keep a pretty close eye on the skibuilders discussion forum. It could be just my imagination, or just co-incidence, but it does seem that the industry is moving in directions that contributors on the forum have been discussing for quite some time. I also get the feeling, after listening to the interviews, that the big manufacturers aren't really that much farther along than we are in building the 'dream' ski... seems that we're all at about the same level with trying to figure it all out.

G-man

[bigKam]

...I also get the feeling, after listening to the interviews, that the big manufacturers aren't really that much farther along than we are in building the 'dream' ski... seems that we're all at about the same level with trying to figure it all out.

despite how long skiing has been around, i believe there's still a lot to be discovered in ski design. some reasons why progress is slow is the lack of information sharing within the industry and the limited amount of funding for ski R&D. when was the last time you heard of someone getting $$$$$ to do research on skis? there are a lot "secrets" in the industry. nothing wrong with that, especially when it's business related, but at the same time it hinders the advancement of knowlege. i'm not surprised that they are "trying to figure it out."

i hope our community of passionate skiers and snowboarders can help shed some light on the subject.

[akskier]

I have been thinking of some design concepts. I have yet to build a ski but I am working that direction.

Has anyone tried building asymmetrical skis? I was thinking in 2 ways:

Have left and right specific skis where the outside edge turning radius is set back a couple of inches from the inside radius. By that I mean your inside edge center would be under the ball of your foot and the outside edge center would be under the center of your foot, like a jib ski. It seems like it would lead to quicker turn initiation and overall stability. (alpine turns) When you are in a turn your inside/uphill foot is in front of your downhill foot by a few inches so with this design the radius' centers would line up...? (I need to get my scanner working and draw picture maybe)

The other idea would be to have left and right skis where the outside edge radius is slightly shorter then inside edge radius. Theory being that since your inside/uphill leg is on the inside of the turn (by the width of your stance), the circumference should match the difference.

As far as core design goes, my friend actually suggested this idea:

Instead of vertically laminating long 'square' pieces of wood together and planing to profile, why not use use long 'triangle' pieces that interlock? You would have to clamp 2 directions to cure but with the laminated faces being at 60deg to the base (instead of 90deg), you might gain added long. and torsion strength...?

[billl]

check out www.scottybob.com for asymmetrical skis

[NEngineer]

Movement has a telemark skis (freeheel) that has different side cut for the inner and outer edges. http://www.movementskis.com/
I believe G3 is doing the same thing with Rapid Transit.

[skiguy]

Scottybobs skis have a patent on their design. I would bet with a little research you could find prior art of this design invalidating the patent.

[hafte]

Here is an article for the G3 skis.

http://www.telemarktips.com/NewRev.html

[rockaukum]

My .02 cents.... Most of us could not feel or determine anything but gross changes in design.
That being said, What happened to having fun on the mountain and having fun in building your own skis! I know my first skis are not perfect, however even with the core being shifted a bit on both skis, I'm still able to make good turns in just about all conditions. (At least those encountered or those brave enough to try). With the shifted core came the shifted binding due to the use of inserts.
Just yesterday my son and I skied the trees at our local resort. Those of you familliar with the conditions located near tahoe know what I'm talking about reguarding conditions. We had a blast even though the skis were not perfect and the conditions wern't either.
Some of the best designs come from doing things that are fun and having fun while doing them.
So my suggestion is to try what you think will be fun and if it doesn't work try something else. One reason I got into building was this: I can build a ski like Karhu or K2 (same mfgr now) and have it break just the same. So why not build your own? The reason I single out K&K is because I have had both of these and the K2 broke and the Karhu delaminated after about 10 days on them. If the Mfgr's are reading they should take note and build a better product that might last longer for the money.
Sorry for the rant.

[powdercow]

Good thoughts G-man.

I think that the push back to sandwich construction (rather than cap) has been something the market has wanted for a long time. Ever since cap came out there has been a large group critizing it as bad for skiing.

Kam's point about the power of this community also hits home with me. There is a thread right above this one where alexis is having the same problem I had with sidewalls. Since I explained my fix he has a method that might work with out having to reinvent the wheel. He might figure a better fix and post it up, either way we are both better off than if we didn’t have this site.
I am a little bit of a romantic (we build skis, so I bet I am not alone) but I do think that a group of people like us could really make a difference in the industry. It's a weird comparison but open source software has forced the big boys to make their products better, I don't doubt that we could do the same. It will take a while but it sure would be fun to look back at this and see what happens.

[RoboGeek]

heck.. we could become the industry!

[Greg]

The other idea would be to have left and right skis where the outside edge radius is slightly shorter then inside edge radius. Theory being that since your inside/uphill leg is on the inside of the turn (by the width of your stance), the circumference should match the difference.

Akskier,
This happened on my skis, "The Better Rockets". I don't really know what their exact radii are, but if you go this route, be careful with how different the radii are. I would guess that mine have 1 or 2 meters in radius difference between the inside and outside edge, and it causes some interesting skiing issues. When you carve really hard, the inside ski tends to run away, which can be very unnerving, so I ussually carve hard on the downhill ski.

If you really want to mess with the edges, you might take a look at the LIBtech Snowboards "Magna-Traction". It is essentially just a wavey edge that increases the pressure on the edge, and from skiing reverse side cut skis (which have a very short edge contact), I would bet that if done right, you could get a great carving edge using this method. The only real problem I can see with this is that it will be difficult to get the edges to bend to the right shape.

Good luck with the construction!

[hafte]

My .02 cents.... Most of us could not feel or determine anything but gross changes in design.
That being said, What happened to having fun on the mountain and having fun in building your own skis! I know my first skis are not perfect, however even with the core being shifted a bit on both skis, I'm still able to make good turns in just about all conditions. (At least those encountered or those brave enough to try). With the shifted core came the shifted binding due to the use of inserts.
Just yesterday my son and I skied the trees at our local resort. Those of you familliar with the conditions located near tahoe know what I'm talking about reguarding conditions. We had a blast even though the skis were not perfect and the conditions wern't either.
Some of the best designs come from doing things that are fun and having fun while doing them.
So my suggestion is to try what you think will be fun and if it doesn't work try something else. One reason I got into building was this: I can build a ski like Karhu or K2 (same mfgr now) and have it break just the same. So why not build your own? The reason I single out K&K is because I have had both of these and the K2 broke and the Karhu delaminated after about 10 days on them. If the Mfgr's are reading they should take note and build a better product that might last longer for the money.
Sorry for the rant.

I think the fun aspect is why I build several of my toys. Skis are just the latest exploration. I like the minimalist approach myself. Keeping it simple is the way to go. We were up for a last day at Pow Mow Saturday and an Atomic rep was at the upper lot letting people demo skis so we went over and had a chat. Asked him if he had any K2 stickers I could put on my skis. He didn’t know quite what to think. Unfortunately he had no tele gear so I couldn’t try anything. He had a pair of skis that had the Atomic puls system in them which consisted of two bars that moved under a highly shaped top cap to a shock absorber with an integrated binding system. He said they retail for $1300.00!!! To me that just seems like a manufacturers nightmare and a breakable gimmick to freeze up on a cold day. We didn’t say much at the time but we both giggled later at the idea of a mechanically induced camber like flex. Might be a good idea, but seems complicated and unnecessary to me. We mentioned after a bit that we are skiing on skis by the Left Hand Ski Co. He was all interested about where they are from who they are etc. We finally tell him that we are the LHS, and show him the Doods. He is a young kid and just can’t believe that someone could do that out of there garage. I think we made a real impression on him. Wish I had some business cards to hand out… although that could get me in trouble with the city i.e. no business license.

Here is Atomics tech page http://www.atomicsnow.com/atomic.php?id=31&f=1&s=18

Robogeek wrote:

heck.. we could become the industry!

Wouldn’t that be cool seeing the ski industry go back to a cottage industry kind of like surfing. Custom made skis based on the customers, weight, height, skiing ability, and conditions they like to ski. A simple dependable product made by skiers for skiers.

Hafte

[plywood]

i always need a challenge in my life. that`s why i started to build skateboards and that`s why i started to build skis. so of course there is a big fun factor. but at the same time i really want to improve the things i`m doing - better, lighter, faster etc. skis for example.
i think this is what we all want and do. mainly fun, but with the ambition to improve something and to explore the limits of what each of us can do . and to push those limits!

but now to the industry.
once i had a little dream: building a few pair more, maybe a small serie of skis...maybe even a slightly bigger serie...something like that. i wanted to become a little part of the industry.
(because i have no money and even less time everything is a bit complicated... so it will stay a dream )

i contacted several guys during my research. some smaller manufacturers and some bigger ones. what i recognized was following:
the small ones tried to help me, but also warned me that it would be difficult to start things and that you have to put some money in it. so they basically gave me tips because they were too small to help me more concrete. because they were all very friendly i can understand this very much.

but now to the bigger players. some of them didn`t even answer my requests. some of them did, but in a "yeh, go back to your filthy garage and stay there, playing a bit with what you call ski design - we`re in business for blablabla years, we don`t need anyone to tell us how to make skis"-way. one even invited me to visit him and talk a bit. so i took a ski with me. this guy just laught at me. also like "boy, nice...uh...?thing? you built there. build your toys, but let us professionals build our real skis"

well... maybe i just picked the wrong factories. maybe just these european guys are so dded up...

but maybe this is a general problem: all these guys in the industry are building skis for years. so their minds are pretty fixed on how a ski has to look like. they made skis 10 years ago which looked like this, so they will build skis like this for an other ten years.

maybe this is the reason why they are so sure they`re on the right way...the reason for not being open for new ideas. to not even consider reflecting about new concepts. the reason for not respecting some guys like us, who are taking new aproaches.

i think that the key to succes is a combination between experience and new thoughts. it needs a guy who knows what is possible, but it also needs a guy which has a not so deep knowledge of the matter - this guy will give fresh inputs which a professional may not have seen and not even thought of.

either you find someone who is willing to go one step further or you have to do it by yourself - BECOME THE INDUSTRY

[FREESKIER_FIVE-0]

I agree that the industry guys might just be watching us, and other small builders.

An example, that may very well be a coincidence: next year Volkl is releasing the Katana, which appears to be very similair to plywood's first ski, and even has the same type of tail that has a twin tip as well as a swallow tail.

[endre]

And here is a ski called katana from 2003


The völkl seems like a great ski though, tried it last month and it is a super allround plank. switch riding works fine and the tail guides the ski in pow.