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Richuk
Posts: 1146
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Location: The Duchy of Grand Fenwick

More Monkey business

Post by Richuk »

A huge thanks goes out to all that have led the way and posted on this site. Hopefully this is me doing my bit!

The press - I've gone for the big is big approach. To be honest I found this box section at a powder coating factory, they do bridge parts, so went with it. I was able to pick up the steel for less than the scrap cost, it's 10 mm thick, but these were just splinter by their standards. Everything is bolted together, although some adjustment was necessary. Lucky, because my welding sucks!

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The relief valve is set at 65 psi - reclaimed from an old compressor. The silver sheets is insulation and I have filled the cat tracks with Kingspan ... I know, but I had a couple of free hours and I was feeling particularly eco that day ;)

The insulation is important because I'm heating the press using two carbon underfloor heating element, 160w/m2. This is my cheap heat alternative and so far they have been able to reach the required temperature when pressing: 40 degrees C and 60 post cure. I'm still testing, but they seem quite durable.

I'm still fleshing everything out, posting as I go, hence the post and would appreciate comment and pointers :D

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The carbon heaters are powered by the usual PID controller and SSR. I have earthed the box using the earth provided by the power cable. The press is earthed to the box and the aluminium sheet to the press. I have found this helpful - static discharge!

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This is my planner jig, I'm 99% there! I'm happy with the results, as a blank core takes about 10 mins and the error is in the region of 0.05 of a milimetre. The way it is made allows for as many variations in height. I printed the profile from snowcad and cut using the method below.

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I've made the jig for cutting the base material in the same way i.e. using the same strip of uhmwpe. The uhmwpe is screwed to the blank and the desired pattern is cut using a bearing flush trim bit. Putting a paper template on top of the blank and screwing the strip on top will work too. Little or no finishing is required, although a much longer piece of PE would be better.

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So that is the stuff that has worked - this is the stuff I learnt from :D

Due to cost complications lol, I started off testing PVC hose, 2.5bar burst pressure ... confirmed. Initially it was £2.00 per metre versus £20.00 for fire hose.

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My experiments (honest, I was running a test on this) have shown that without a relief value, the pressure of the connection around valve becomes critical... obvious I know. Relief valves don't get mentioned a lot, but its worth serious consideration. Anyway, the first image is the resultant tear, the second is a bang. As I preferred the tear I have avoided going super tight on the coupling now that I am using fire hose - the bolts and the angle iron at the end of the hose would never fail. Its a bit of redundancy in the system because I have the relief valve, but I used to Kitesurf a lot, so I am always thinking about secondary systems. The conclusion was that the absence of a suitable safety margin when using the PVC hose meant that I got in touch with a company that repairs fire hose. They supplied about 20 metres at the best price in the UK - I'd been looking for about three weeks. I asked for 6 metres. The guy had a local appointment and spent an hour and half in the garage explaining the way he would do things - really useful. He mentioned that the hose will form its own washer if you grind a grove (ring) into the coupling. I varied the approach and drilled a series of dimples into the steel washer, not the brass. No worries at 65 psi - no leakage or movement. Oh yes, no sealant required at the ends or around the coupling. At the ends, I used really thick angle iron, 6 - 7 mm, which ensures the ends are clamped shut. I had this hanging around the garage. Initially, I folded the ends back on themselves when testing the PVC hose - it works with water right. and it works, but its unnecessary. The bolts are to the usual standard specified throughout the site.

This is my attempt to flame treat engineering grade uhmwpe. One section clearly failed, abraded only. The way the material reacts to the flame - distorting the plastic, means that I'd have to think long and hard before trying it again on material this thin. I guess it's a bit of an art.

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I'm running tests at the moment and still making a few revisions. Hopefully I will source the rest of the materials (next week), I'll be up and running a few weeks later. Please feel free to ask questions. I'm more than happy to post more photos

Thanks again for such a great sight and content!!!

Rich

Update

I thought what I was saying about my planner jig was correct, but I was relying on too few results. I'd been told by all the woodworkers I've met that wood was the way to go, but mdf is more accurate - blunts your blades over time ... anyway, I measured the two sets of skis and the results showed that the planner will produce highly accurate results. I have revised the jig and the results are further down - left and right side. I've run five mdf blanks through the planner, making minor changes each time. One more minor revision to go and then I'll be happy with the results.

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Eighteen separate points of reference:

Left and then Right side

target 3.50mm: 3.46mm 3.55mm
target 3.71mm: 3.75mm 3.81mm
target 4.71mm: 4.77mm 4.72mm
target 5.71mm: 5.80mm 5.75mm
target 6.71mm: 6.69mm 6.71mm
target 7.71mm: 7.79mm 7.74mm
target 8.71mm: 8.68mm 8.73mm
target 9.71mm: 9.60mm 9.85mm
target 10.71mm:10.89mm 10.75mm
target 11.00mm:10.99mm 10.98mm
target 10.71mm:10.75mm 10.81mm
target 9.71mm: 9.83mm 9.79mm
target 8.71mm: 8.77mm 8.78mm
target 7.71mm: 7.77mm 7.80mm
target 6.71mm: 6.77mm 6.79mm
target 5.71mm: 5.78mm 5.79mm
target 4.71mm: 4.78mm 4.78mm
target 3.71mm: 3.86mm 3.70mm

Final set of results - same targets. There's still a bit of variety within these results, but I think I've max'd out the accuracy of the tools.

3.43mm 3.56mm
3.68mm 3.71mm
4.78mm 4.72mm
5.78mm 5.72mm
6.70mm 6.71mm
7.79mm 7.79mm
8.75mm 8.72mm
9.79mm 9.82mm
10.81mm 10.75mm
11.00mm 11.00mm
10.71mm 10.80mm
9.77mm 9.68mm
8.75mm 8.73mm
7.72mm 7.73mm
6.72mm 6.74mm
5.77mm 5.74mm
4.71mm 4.71mm
3.75mm 3.70mm

Getting the same results with ash/poplar and maple. Maple throws up a few faults every now and again. Douglas fir isn't a accurate as I would like - went it get really thin.
Last edited by Richuk on Fri Oct 01, 2010 1:40 pm, edited 46 times in total.
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falls
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Post by falls »

nice work rich!
Especially like the proper colour coding of the wiring. I was a bit lazy with mine.
Hose exploding doesn't sound that good. I am using PVC hose too, but the red type rated to 130PSI. I have had a test at 50PSI and it seems OK. After seeing yours though I may see a hose upgrade to firehose in my future.
Don't wait up, I'm off to kill Summer....
skidesmond
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Post by skidesmond »

It's looking pretty good! Pressurizing the hose for the first time can be scary. I left the room the first time. I setup my compressor to shut down at 40psi. I let it set for about 20 minutes before goign back into the room. I didnt want to be around just in case. :D

I'm using PD2 PVC heavy duty lay flat discharge hose rated at 150psi and I press at around 40-45psi.

Keep us posted!
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falls
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Post by falls »

also rich. did you get the auber PID with the ramp and soak function? Have you deciphered the algorithms to program that thing yet? thanks
Don't wait up, I'm off to kill Summer....
Richuk
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Location: The Duchy of Grand Fenwick

Post by Richuk »

Yep - setting the compressor incrimentally and leaving the room is the way I did it too. I had the sense to run a couple of tests before putting in the press, purposely pushing to its limit. It was a short length rated at 2.5 bar. I wouldn't have run the same test if I'd had your red hose, i.e. test to destruction, but I wanted to understand how safe the PVC hose was going to be. I'm a relief valve convert now!

I don't have the ramp and heat controller Falls, but had some interesting results when tuning. Auber have a great technical guy, he's happy to chat.

Thanks guys!
Last edited by Richuk on Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
Richuk
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Location: The Duchy of Grand Fenwick

Post by Richuk »

Here's the results of a few tests, trying to guage how much epoxy to use and what kind of pressure; I have a full sized piece in the press at the moment. Hopefully the full sized piece will tell me if the mold any good. I have used a greater proportion of epoxy this time. I think three of the following photos show that I may have starved the fibreglass a bit, (when trying to cut down on waste) although the fibreglass is almost transparent before it is applied??? I'm confused about the white spot in the middle - air bubble?

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Thinking about it more, I should have mentioned that I had to release these pieces from the mold i.e. pull it like crazy, so I reckon that I've stressed the fibreglass and caused these errors :x Mold release is expensive and I'm trying to save cash so I can buy he right materials. Had a bit of car wax hanging around, it does work but I should have applied more. Switch to briwax, floor polish - high in carnauba.

Briwax works really well
Last edited by Richuk on Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:39 pm, edited 8 times in total.
Jekul
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Post by Jekul »

The white spot in the middle looks like it didn't get fully wetted out by the epoxy.
OAC
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Post by OAC »

Wet, wet, wet....and then pressure! Keep in mind that epoxy hardening is a "Exothermic reaction" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exothermic . Some of my chemist collegues tells me that the reaction also releases gas.
Richuk
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Location: The Duchy of Grand Fenwick

Post by Richuk »

Jekul/OAC - thanks guys! I've just taken a full sized blank out and it looks alot better. I'd previously read a few posts by OAC, about the amount of epoxy, so I went ahead and added an extra 15%. I guess you have to factor for shrinkage - liquid to solid? I'm letting the fibreglass sit before using it and its transparent when it is placed in the mold - Ill read a little more about laying up!
Last edited by Richuk on Tue May 18, 2010 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
OAC
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Post by OAC »

I haven't noticed any shrinkage.

Another "rule of thumb" from my experience..:-):
Uni, Bi and triax fiber are not so good in "forming" compared with the twill and rowing structures. So if you have any irregularities or cavities on the core there might be problems getting the epoxy in all the places if you're not generous with the epoxy. And the press have to get to it also.

I'm using regular epoxi and I'm pressing without heat. I press at room temp. ca. 20 degrees C. for 24 h. According to the manufacturer. And then take them out of the press, let them rest for atleast a week! I know it sounds like a long and boring process, we all want out on the hill asap! But nevertheless you can't force the curing process. According to my supplier (Kompositfabriken, Sweden) the heating fits better in the "post curing" and not more than 2*room temp. There are alot of long fibermolecules being created in the process, called polymerization, and it takes time and generate heat itself, but it will be strong!.
There are epoxies special made for heating puposes. I haven't tried these.

I'm not a chemist but I know how to tell a good process from a bad...so to say.
There are probably hundreds of ways to do it, out there.

This is just how I do it. :)

Cheers
JanneP
Richuk
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Location: The Duchy of Grand Fenwick

Post by Richuk »

Thanks for the advice JanneP : ) I'm putting a few pieces through at the moment and getting used to the process/checking the press/mold. The epoxy I'm using requires a bit of heat, 30 degrees C and like you say, I'll get better results if I focus on the basics.

I've found these website useful:

http://www.epoxyproducts.com/epoxyfaq.html and this was a great summary http://www.epoxyproducts.com/25points4u.html as was this http://www.epoxymethods.com/faqs.htm. Searching for 'Epoxy FAQ' gets you there!

Picked up 25m of 1 inch kevlar tape yesterday for £5.00 - local depot was having a sale. I'll be making up a couple of cores and inserting them with kevlar stringers. The ski's I'm using for my baseline appears to have kevlar and carbon stringers, vertically laminated, so I'll make a couple of cores with kevlar and then kevlar and carbon to see where this takes me. I have made a couple of sets to-date, the idea being that I would mix and match a few materials. I had a thought about harmonics and mixed the wood according to which gave me the best result i.e. vibration dampening. The cheaper the wood, the better the result! I'm not sure how credible this will turn out to be, but it costs me nothing to try right ;)

If anyone has any experience of placement of kevlar feel free to give me a shout, as I don't want to waste this stuff! OK, it appears I should be putting kevlar under the base to support the carbon. I've bought some uni-directional tows, uni-directional carbon tape is on its way.

I should have an edge bender fairly soon. My uncle is sorting this out for me. It will cold roll the steel into the most acute angle and then I'll adjust it by hand. Photo's to follow!
Last edited by Richuk on Mon Jun 28, 2010 2:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Richuk
Posts: 1146
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:53 am
Location: The Duchy of Grand Fenwick

Post by Richuk »

We'll the update from Kingswood was really helpful - love that guys graphic styling!

Thought I'd throw a few more pictures up - background stuff, not real pieces, but this is how I'm doing it.

Who needs sash clamps!

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Putting the sidewalls on

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I'd like to avoid wasting the hardwood I'm using!

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The number of stringers has been determined by the thickness of the original piece of wood and that is fine right now

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I'm using Iroko, Beech, Douglas Fir and Pine
Last edited by Richuk on Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
OAC
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Post by OAC »

Perfect links to those websites!

Now I know what I shall do with my Black&Decker Workbench!... ;)
Richuk
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Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:53 am
Location: The Duchy of Grand Fenwick

Post by Richuk »

I would have used sash clamps if I'd had them, but the workbench is a good alternative. This is what I'll be doing post cure - Kingspan! I had it lying around in the garage and I only have 320 watts available, but reaching 60 degrees C doesn't appear to be a problem. These carbon heaters will reach 80 degrees, but I don't need to push them any further given the epoxy I'm using and I want them to last. I now have an in-print in the top of the Kingspan - doh! I'll be a little more gentle with it next time.

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The blank I have in at the moment doesn't have a base, I what to see if my epoxy technique has improved - it turned out to be a good test run. I intend to drill a couple of pilot holes into the core once I've removed the flash, I have a small piece of base material and edge attached. I need to measure the internal temperature and adjust the gain within the PID. Just checking that I have enough heat.

I'm going to have to do something about those bungies - I don't think they will fail, but they look like a big fish hook that would take an eye out

Update

In reality I don't use the Kingspan on top. I'm assuming the mdf has dried out a little because everything heats up really quickly and holds 60 degrees without any additional insulation. I just seal the edges using pipe insulation, which is a cheap way of catching un-used epoxy and it doesn't stick. No problem with the internal temperature of the materials.
Last edited by Richuk on Mon Aug 02, 2010 2:55 pm, edited 18 times in total.
Richuk
Posts: 1146
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:53 am
Location: The Duchy of Grand Fenwick

Post by Richuk »

Here are a few photo's of the blank - photobucket is driving me crazy, I can't get these photo's right. Anyway, this was a good exercise, as it has highlighted a couple of issues :oops:

The press is quite flat across the width, 0.3 mm error, but I would get better results if I'd put it through the planner - doh!

There's a bit of movement to resolve at the front (forward tip with most acute angle), I think it is being caused by the aluminium sheet, which creates a bridge before it is compressed and then because it becomes trapped, it blocks any further movement. I can either re-work the mold, trim the length of the aluminium sheet, re-work the aluminium to reflect the curve of the tips, or, if I read through the site ... I'll be inspired to use a bit of teflon! www.toastabags.com - just sitting in the kitchen draw waiting for a purpose.

http://www.skibuilders.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 9&start=30

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Cutting through the flash - two layers of fibreglass and one sheet of rubber, was done quickly with the edge grinder. Dusty - not to be repeated. Not happy with the jigsaw, it's too aggressive. I've only done the basic with the router - some good results, some feathering of the fibreglass? I think this might be a failure to work the epoxy into the fibre - I've bought an aluminium paddle roller. Apparently vingar is a good solvent - washing brushes and the like. Should have re-read Happy Monkey's log before doing this.

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Thinking ahead ... :idea: ... http://www.freepatentsonline.com/ search 'torsion box'. Well its an interesting resource in any event.
Last edited by Richuk on Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:58 am, edited 8 times in total.
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