Well I'm guessing my edge issues are worse than I thought.
While cutting out the cherry pair the tip delam-ed at the base,
So I grabbed it and gave a gentle tug the whole base came off without any effort.
Does crown offer a warranty?
I bought this material last April or May.
Will they re treat it if I send it back to them?
I'll have to call them tomorrow and find out.
My wife took the camera so I can't post any pics but will tomorrow.
And I'll also post the response from crown.(If I get one)
sam
sammer's skis
Moderators: Head Monkey, kelvin, bigKam, skidesmond, chrismp
Well crown definitely is going to help.
Jim sent me an rma# and is paying the freight.
I guess it sounds like they didn't treat my base before they shipped it out
Too bad it cost me 2 pairs of skis for they're mistake
I'll try to stick new base on the skis when it comes back from crown
I should have noticed, the base was too smooth, it wasn't even abraded!
The epoxy sticks to my waxed work bench better than it did to the base!
The camber mold turned out pretty good.
I think this tip shape should work out good.
The layup turned out alright a couple of dry-ish spots
1 good sized air pocket under the VDS
This is probably the worst of it
sam
Jim sent me an rma# and is paying the freight.
I guess it sounds like they didn't treat my base before they shipped it out
Too bad it cost me 2 pairs of skis for they're mistake
I'll try to stick new base on the skis when it comes back from crown
I should have noticed, the base was too smooth, it wasn't even abraded!
The epoxy sticks to my waxed work bench better than it did to the base!
The camber mold turned out pretty good.
I think this tip shape should work out good.
The layup turned out alright a couple of dry-ish spots
1 good sized air pocket under the VDS
This is probably the worst of it
sam
You don't even have a legit signature, nothing to reveal who you are and what you do...
Best of luck to you. (uneva)
Best of luck to you. (uneva)
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MontuckyMadman
- Posts: 2395
- Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:41 pm
wow, i havent been on here for a long time, ( mainly because school has been crazy, with university fairs and midterms) but, the base can be salvaged....
on my first single lay-up ( flex test / procedure practice) i used off cut p-tex base material for my tip spacers. as we all know the p-tex is only abraded on one side. well i did not know that at the time. so, next morning, i pull the edgless ski out of my press and the tip spacers fall out. no extra force. just fell out. so i freaked out. i look and then realize that only one side is a abraded. i quickly took a rough/coarse gritted sander disc. ( like a 60 grit. ) pushed hard against the p-text and left and abraded side on the p-tex. put epoxy on it. slid it back in my press. and now it looks fine. ill take pics to put into my journal.
on my first single lay-up ( flex test / procedure practice) i used off cut p-tex base material for my tip spacers. as we all know the p-tex is only abraded on one side. well i did not know that at the time. so, next morning, i pull the edgless ski out of my press and the tip spacers fall out. no extra force. just fell out. so i freaked out. i look and then realize that only one side is a abraded. i quickly took a rough/coarse gritted sander disc. ( like a 60 grit. ) pushed hard against the p-text and left and abraded side on the p-tex. put epoxy on it. slid it back in my press. and now it looks fine. ill take pics to put into my journal.
Crown is shipping the base back today.
They claim they tested it and it was treated to their highest standards
Asked me about my process how much heat etc.
So I typed a long email explaining it all.
The response was...
"Sam, I read to line 3 about the acetone... it just so happened
I had our product engineer sitting in the office when I started
going through your email. He said the same thing.....
Do not wipe it down with anything, take it out of the
box and use it. If you want to clean it off, just use a shop
vac to remove any particles. Acetone almost always has
small amount of oil in it.
We have the material reflame treated and ready to ship."
I've always used an acetone wipe on all my bases and topsheets
guess I'll have to try without and see.
So now I just have to wait.
In the mean time... dust collection for the router bridge...
sam
They claim they tested it and it was treated to their highest standards
Asked me about my process how much heat etc.
So I typed a long email explaining it all.
The response was...
"Sam, I read to line 3 about the acetone... it just so happened
I had our product engineer sitting in the office when I started
going through your email. He said the same thing.....
Do not wipe it down with anything, take it out of the
box and use it. If you want to clean it off, just use a shop
vac to remove any particles. Acetone almost always has
small amount of oil in it.
We have the material reflame treated and ready to ship."
I've always used an acetone wipe on all my bases and topsheets
guess I'll have to try without and see.
So now I just have to wait.
In the mean time... dust collection for the router bridge...
sam
You don't even have a legit signature, nothing to reveal who you are and what you do...
Best of luck to you. (uneva)
Best of luck to you. (uneva)
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skidesmond
- Posts: 2337
- Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 3:26 pm
- Location: Western Mass, USA
- Contact:
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doughboyshredder
- Posts: 1354
- Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:37 pm
sorry about that. What a pain.
I have said it before, and I'm sure I'll say it again.
DO NOT USE ACETONE, MEK, OR ANY HOT SOLVENTS ON PLASTICS.
Crown actually says to only use air and water.
They didn't give you the full scoop either. What happens is on a molecular level. Using any solvent actually removes the flame treating.
I use mineral spirits, but then I flame treat the material again right before layup.
I have said it before, and I'm sure I'll say it again.
DO NOT USE ACETONE, MEK, OR ANY HOT SOLVENTS ON PLASTICS.
Crown actually says to only use air and water.
They didn't give you the full scoop either. What happens is on a molecular level. Using any solvent actually removes the flame treating.
I use mineral spirits, but then I flame treat the material again right before layup.
I was reading and thought of a repair I did to some skis. I needed to fix a problem I created by cutting out a section of base material and replacing it with new material. As I remember it, once I had a hold of the base section to be removed, it came out pretty easy. I have also removed a top sheet on my son's snowboard and again once I had a section to pull on, It came off very easy. Point being that I feel the bond was good yet I could peel it apart? I do use Acetone and would be hesitant to not use it especially with the edges after being handled. I think most people clean prior to lay-up, If not acetone, then what? There are oils transfered from the skin too. Which is the lesser of the two evils?
ra
ra
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twizzstyle
- Posts: 2204
- Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:25 pm
- Location: Kenmore, Wa USA
I've seen you post this advice dozens of times, but I've never really paid attention to it. I to have always used acetone (granted I've never had bonding issues, yet anyways).doughboyshredder wrote: I have said it before, and I'm sure I'll say it again.
DO NOT USE ACETONE, MEK, OR ANY HOT SOLVENTS ON PLASTICS.
What about just rubbing alcohol? When I do all of my edge bending (which involves lots of checking on the base) the base ends up filthy, so I need to clean it with something.
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doughboyshredder
- Posts: 1354
- Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:37 pm
If you use anything on the plastic, you need to re flame treat.
Rock, you should NOT be able to pull a section of base or top sheet off. If you can it is not bonded properly.
As far as what to use to clean your material, don't let it get dirty. If it does get dirty and you have to clean it, use mineral spirits, and then flame treat again.
Oh, and it's NOT about oil. Solvents remove the molecules that have been flame treated.
Rock, you should NOT be able to pull a section of base or top sheet off. If you can it is not bonded properly.
As far as what to use to clean your material, don't let it get dirty. If it does get dirty and you have to clean it, use mineral spirits, and then flame treat again.
Oh, and it's NOT about oil. Solvents remove the molecules that have been flame treated.
Interesting pdf - solvent compatibility.
http://www.camlab.co.uk/sitefiles/RTP_i ... ticomp.pdf
DBS, I'm guessing the question should be, what is the best cleaner and or process that removes any grease applied during handling without disturbing polarity.
http://www.camlab.co.uk/sitefiles/RTP_i ... ticomp.pdf
DBS, I'm guessing the question should be, what is the best cleaner and or process that removes any grease applied during handling without disturbing polarity.
The ski that did delam ( the rest are still holding together despite my trying to pull them apart) had a few issues with the top sheet that kinda bugged me.
So I decided to remove the clear topsheet.
I had to use a chisel to get it off and removed a good deal of the cherry veneer it was stuck to.
That topsheet was also wiped with acetone.
The base on the mate ski was also washed with acetone and despite my trying and chiseling at the edge I'm unable to get it to come off.
I'm not buying the "acetone was my problem" argument just yet.
Although I do believe it is probably an issue, I don't think it is the issue
I made a few mistakes on that pair, forgot core locators etc.
I guess I could have dded up somehow.
I'm just gonna wait until the base gets back and try again.
Not the first ski I've messed up and probably wont be the last.
I wont be using acetone again on my bases but will continue to use it to clean my edges after bending.
twizz...
On the edge bending, your base shouldn't be anywhere near your edges when your bending.
Bend to your template.
After your edges are bent you can cut out your base and glue them on.
sam
So I decided to remove the clear topsheet.
I had to use a chisel to get it off and removed a good deal of the cherry veneer it was stuck to.
That topsheet was also wiped with acetone.
The base on the mate ski was also washed with acetone and despite my trying and chiseling at the edge I'm unable to get it to come off.
I'm not buying the "acetone was my problem" argument just yet.
Although I do believe it is probably an issue, I don't think it is the issue
I made a few mistakes on that pair, forgot core locators etc.
I guess I could have dded up somehow.
I'm just gonna wait until the base gets back and try again.
Not the first ski I've messed up and probably wont be the last.
I wont be using acetone again on my bases but will continue to use it to clean my edges after bending.
twizz...
On the edge bending, your base shouldn't be anywhere near your edges when your bending.
Bend to your template.
After your edges are bent you can cut out your base and glue them on.
sam
You don't even have a legit signature, nothing to reveal who you are and what you do...
Best of luck to you. (uneva)
Best of luck to you. (uneva)
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twizzstyle
- Posts: 2204
- Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:25 pm
- Location: Kenmore, Wa USA
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MontuckyMadman
- Posts: 2395
- Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:41 pm
Well I did a bit of research and 99.9% acetone will leave an oily residue that will completely evaporate in a couple days.
I also found that, according to almost all the things I read, on its own is pretty much harmless.
It is a good solvent though and will dissolve lots of things which can then be absorbed by your skin.
So ya, no more acetone wipes for my ski base or top sheet.
I will still use it to wash edges as they get bent days or weeks before layup.
As far as oils from your skin, always wear gloves when handling your base, topsheet and plastic sidewalls.
Things like wood are already oily to a certain extent so I don't think the little bit of oil from your skin will hurt that much.
After bending edges and washing with your solvent of choice wear gloves to protect them from any transfer from your hands.
I think that's all you can do.
sam
I also found that, according to almost all the things I read, on its own is pretty much harmless.
It is a good solvent though and will dissolve lots of things which can then be absorbed by your skin.
So ya, no more acetone wipes for my ski base or top sheet.
I will still use it to wash edges as they get bent days or weeks before layup.
As far as oils from your skin, always wear gloves when handling your base, topsheet and plastic sidewalls.
Things like wood are already oily to a certain extent so I don't think the little bit of oil from your skin will hurt that much.
After bending edges and washing with your solvent of choice wear gloves to protect them from any transfer from your hands.
I think that's all you can do.
sam
You don't even have a legit signature, nothing to reveal who you are and what you do...
Best of luck to you. (uneva)
Best of luck to you. (uneva)