Potential CNC template service -- feedback requested

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Head Monkey
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Potential CNC template service -- feedback requested

Post by Head Monkey »

I’d like to offer a CNC template service that’s super-affordable based on snoCAD-X. The idea is that you send me a DXF exported from the latest version of snoCAD-X and I’ll cut any of a variety of templates from that on my CNC machine then ship them out to you. I’d cut the templates out of 1/2" MDF. My goal is to charge based on raw material usage, packing material used, actual shipping from me here in 98014, plus a few bucks for my time and wear & tear on the machine. If you’re in the Seattle area you could pickup up from me and save on shipping.

Currently I’m thinking about $13.48 for a single average snowboard template (30cm wide), and as low as $9.08 for 4 at a time, and about $10.26 for a single average ski template (13cm wide), and as low as $6.13 for 4 at a time. These prices would be everything but shipping, i.e., the $10.26 for a single ski template includes (in this example) the 6” of MDF, cardboard for shipping, and a bit of overhead costs for me, but no shipping from 98014. Wider templates would be more, narrower would be less due to differences in MDF consumption.

I’d like to gauge interest in this (i.e., let me know if this sounds interesting to you), and I’d also like to know which templates people might be interested in. snoCAD-X can spit out the following:

1. Overall shape
2. Core shape
3. Alignment marks (insert locations, nose/waist/tail markers, and centerline markers)
4. Mold rib
5. Profile template
6. Nose and tail spacer outlines

To that I would add:

7. Base shape, which would be 2mm smaller all around than the overall shape.

For me, before my CNC machine, I always used a base template, a core template, and a single mold rib template to make everything. Alignment marks on them all would have been awesome, so I’d be inclined to add those. A profile template might be good for those of you using router bridges. I don’t know what the overall shape template would be for, but maybe I’m missing something. Ditto for the nose and tail spacer outlines… I see no use for those. What do you guys think you would want?

I’d think a decent package would be a set of base, core, and mold templates for a given shape. This would be roughly $26.21 for a snowboard, and $19.78 for a ski, plus shipping. A profile template would add $3.38 to either of those. Would people generally be interested in a package, or individual templates?

The reason this would be so cheap vs. a more normal cost for CNC cutting things like this is that, well, I got a little bored over the xmas holiday and wrote a specialized DXF importer tailored to snoCAD-X DXF’s directly into MonkeyCAM. MonkeyCAM is a bit of custom software I’ve been developing since I built my CNC machine in ’03 that I’ve used to design and machine all of my custom snowboards. It normally takes my description of a snowboard and spits out the 9 CNC programs needed to machine the core, base, and nose/tail spacers. I plugged the DXF importer into the backend of it and recognize the different layers in the snoCAD-X DXF, automatically convert them to gcode files taking into account my tooling and work holding techniques. So I can take your DXF from snoCAD-X and spit out programs for my CNC machine in about 20 seconds, complete with a cut list for MDF that I take to the table saw. I cut out the necessary strips of MDF, and start running them through the CNC machine. The average machine time for a template is about 4 min, so I can have a set of templates done and ready to package in about 20 min start to finish.

Oh, that reminds me: would anyone be interested in getting copies of the gcode files with the templates? It’s kinda rare that someone will take an actual gcode file from someone unknown (i.e., me) and run it on their CNC machine without a lot of verification, so perhaps this isn’t valuable, but I’ll throw it out there.

I’ll consider a general purpose template service based on DXF’s from other programs as well, but there will be a programming fee on top of template cutting cost that will be a whole lot more.

Thanks,

Mike
Everything I know about snowboard building, almost: MonkeyWiki, a guide to snowboard construction
Free open source ski and snowboard CADCAM: MonkeyCAM, snoCAD-X
doughboyshredder
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Post by doughboyshredder »

I'll pay whatever you want! No seriously, the templates you cut for me saved me a lot of time and hassle.

As you know, I am most interested in having you do the programming from the solidworks dxf file and cut just one template for me which I will use for core and base cut outs. The interlock template I am working on might be tougher.

You could also maybe offer a few different tip and tail radius blocks. Since snocad doesn't do that it would probably be real helpful.
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falls
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Post by falls »

Hi Mike
I think your prices seem very very reasonable. I'm in Australia so the shipping puts me out of the equation, but the price for the actual service is great.
I am getting templates cut now and it's $100 per hour (about $93US) for programming/cutting, + MDF costs.

Not to hijack your thread, but just a quick question about allignment marks for centre line, nose and tail etc. Do you mark these with a very narrow router bit? My CNC service uses a 10mm router bit for MDF cutting and I'm wondering whether this is too wide for very effective allignment marks. Thanks.

Hopefully the template service doesn't just become as much work as making the boards was for you!! And thanks for all your advice in these forums too.

I think at your prices a set of templates is a good idea. I'm thinking to just get a base template and use a different bearing on the router bit to cut an offset for the core size.
If the variation in the cost of MDF is only small for different ski/board sizes I wonder if you'd be best to have a set price per template that includes a "fair" amount of MDF. ie. on skinny jobs you make a bit more, and on fatter templates a bit less. It might simplify things a bit for buyers. Otherwise if you're happy to work out the actual real cost and quote people that would be fine. I don't know that people will gripe over you charging 10 bucks instead of 9.83 with the immense amount of time CNC is going to save them, not to mention the added precision.
ben_mtl
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Post by ben_mtl »

If only I've been on the west coast !! grrr ! :evil:

Well for the CNC service it would run me a lot in shipping but it's definitively a great idea, very usefull for small builders like us especially as you know what you're cutting and you know the quality we expect from you. Still can't get over the shitty result I had with a previous CNC service !

Anyway I have another idea for you maybe, or at leat here is what I would be interested in as I'm a bit far for the CNC service...
I know you're super organized and you seem to keep track of everything so I would be interested in some plans of the CNC you built, It's ski/snowboard building oriented so it's just great for us ! Maybe you could start gathering info and say how much it would cost to build the CNC (time and money).
After that if there is some interest in your design you could prepare the plans and sell them. I would be pretty damn interested in that ! I'm thinking of some CNC designs but something that I know it works will just make my life easier.
If you come up with a 2 years / 20000$ project... not sure though ;)
A bad day skiing is always better than a good one at work...
doughboyshredder
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Post by doughboyshredder »

ben_mtl wrote:
Anyway I have another idea for you maybe, or at leat here is what I would be interested in as I'm a bit far for the CNC service...
I know you're super organized and you seem to keep track of everything so I would be interested in some plans of the CNC you built, It's ski/snowboard building oriented so it's just great for us ! Maybe you could start gathering info and say how much it would cost to build the CNC (time and money).
After that if there is some interest in your design you could prepare the plans and sell them. I would be pretty damn interested in that ! I'm thinking of some CNC designs but something that I know it works will just make my life easier.
If you come up with a 2 years / 20000$ project... not sure though ;)
I like this idea a lot. Especially if you offer MonkeyCAM and customizations for importing other dxf's.
SRP
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Post by SRP »

I'm with doughboyshredder and ben_mtl. I would be into paying for some cnc plans and conversion software. I have been debating building a cnc or buying one. I also think your cnc service sounds great and may be interested if I don't get my own.
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Head Monkey
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Post by Head Monkey »

Hmm… I just had a thought. Shipping these things is expensive mostly because of their length, not their weight. I wonder if I can cut a template in half like a puzzle piece at the waist, so it can snap back together and still have a perfect edge? I think I’ll give it a shot. If it works out, then I might be able to ship a more reasonable sized package for less cost all around.

On making your own CNC machine, search both this forum and GrafSnowboards for posts by me on the topic of CNC. (Here’s a good start: http://www.skibuilders.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1088) It cost me $5,645.79 in 2003 to build myself. It took me about 3 months from receiving the plans to having a working machine. I started with plans from www.machinetoolcamp.com. Looks like they’re still in business, and selling similar plans. I started with the plans for a 4x8 machine, and sized it down for one reason, and one reason only: I couldn’t fit much in my small space. So I made it 2x7, instead. I also went nuts and upgraded most all of the components far beyond what they needed to be… I would recommend sticking with the plans in retrospect. (It should have cost about $3k, but I tend to go overboard.) I sourced a lot of the components on eBay, got the aluminum locally, and had a buddy with a mill machine a couple of the parts for me. Before starting, I took two courses at the local technical college: precision machining (machining metal precisely with mills and lathes) and a CNC machining course. Without those two courses I would not have been as successful as I was.

Check out www.cnczone.com... That’s the SkiBuilders of the DIY CNC world.

MonkeyCAM is a different story… I may consider selling it one day. A buddy at work is constantly bugging me to get serious about that. We’ll see.
Everything I know about snowboard building, almost: MonkeyWiki, a guide to snowboard construction
Free open source ski and snowboard CADCAM: MonkeyCAM, snoCAD-X
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Head Monkey
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Post by Head Monkey »

falls wrote:Hi Mike
Not to hijack your thread, but just a quick question about allignment marks for centre line, nose and tail etc. Do you mark these with a very narrow router bit? My CNC service uses a 10mm router bit for MDF cutting and I'm wondering whether this is too wide for very effective allignment marks. Thanks.
Falls,

When I do alignment marks on the bases of the cores I cut, I use a 1/4" v bit like the one on this page: http://www.happymonkeysnowboards.com/HM ... sidewalls/

I sink the bit 0.030” into the core and it leaves a perfect little dimple that I can use for alignment later. It works great, but it requires a tool change, which is annoying on my machine.

For alignment marks on templates I use the same 1/4" bit that I use to cut the template to make a “star”. The center of the star is the point of interest, and the points on the star make it easy to find the center. Like this:

Image
Image

Hope that helps,

Mike
Everything I know about snowboard building, almost: MonkeyWiki, a guide to snowboard construction
Free open source ski and snowboard CADCAM: MonkeyCAM, snoCAD-X
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falls
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Post by falls »

thanks. very clever!
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originskis
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Post by originskis »

sweet! that would be awesome! i hope you end up doing this cuz im having troubles printing templates from snocad-x in town. im also having trouble making molds with a jig saw so the overall profile would be a good one. hope you can do it!
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shopvac
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Post by shopvac »

Hi Mike, I think this service would be very nice. I am in the same boat as Doughboy though, in that I have been drawing everything in SolidWorks '05. I have had two different small businesses cut out templates for me in the past. I usually save the files as a .dxf and email it to them. I guess I don't know what happens in between. $10 a mold is super reasonable and I would pretty much agree with falls that a set price would be cool with me. Could you give DBS and I an estimated programming cost to make one template? I would probably send 2-4 drawings at a time to you.

I just had 3 ski templates cut out (only one template used per pair for cutting out the bases like some others here on the forums) as well as 11 new tip rocker molds I will glue together for $185. They charged $75/hr. I draw edge recesses in our templates which I don't believe snow-cad can do yet (because we don't do full length edge wraps. Also, sw gives some user flexibility and control snow-cad doesn't offer (like designing new tip and tail molds, etc).

Would the templates need to be shipped in a round cardboard tube?

Ben_mtl - I think Odin is selling a homebuilt CNC router for $3k or something silly cheap. I believe he finished the prototype but I am not sure what the status is now. Check out his thread here:

http://www.skibuilders.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1854
brewster
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Post by brewster »

There are these fasteners that are primarily used for cheap furniture (like Ikea). Essentially, they are two rings with a threaded rod between them. The rings sit flush in the work piece and the rod connects them. As you tighten the rod, it pulls the two rings together and the pieces remain flush. I have had no luck finding them at McMaster Carr (primarily because I have no idea what they are called). This would allow you to cut the template in half and reassemble with these cheapy bits. Furthermore, you could use that as the center mark (minus the kerf). Might make shipping more reasonable.

I will try to see if I can get a name. Two or three should to the trick and you could make it part of your NC file.
UPSki
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Post by UPSki »

not only would this be a great service, but I'd use it in about a month. I love it.
mpm32
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Post by mpm32 »

They're called countertop bolts. They come in different styles. Here's on type;

http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/FSC-2600/Zipbolt

I think if you used these and keyed the two halves like a puzzle it would be solid.

Another idea is to biscuit joint the halves and send them with a biscuit so that the user can glue the template together. Prob much cheaper.
kyle
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are you up and running on this?

Post by kyle »

Head Monkey.

Are you ready to do this? I have 3 or 4 ski base templates I need cut right away.
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